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srisom

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"So, it would be great if we could clarify this fact or even answer the ever pending question regarding if a DE would typically have a Morality clause in his contract. "

 

Very interesting question. I looked up "morals clauses" (not being an attorney myself) and learned that they are very case and fact specific. I would wonder what the "morals clause" for a professional Scouter might comprise.

 

a) Not violating the Guide to Safe Scouting - I'm not sure I'd sign that. I'd hate to be fired for driving after dark at a Scout event.

b) Not committing a crime - That sounds pretty reasonable but I don't believe that any of the things we have been discussing is a crime

c) Not violating the Ten Commandments - There can be some real debate on that

d) Not violating "community standards" - That would seem to warrant a paid subscription to "Lawsuit times"

 

I believe that most employees are "at will" employees meaning that they have no contractual protection but that there may be certain reasonable expectations about what will happen in terms of a performance or conduct problem -- progressive discipline with an oral warning, written warning, suspension followed by termination. I know that the BSA is very careful with its employees and I know of employees being given warnings and put on probation.

 

In short, the Scout Executive likely has to act in a reasonable, progressive manner if there is a problem. It certainly is appropriate to comment to a professional if one believes their conduct is inappropriate or is detracting from their service and then to comment to their boss, but the result will not be a public humiliation like the opening scene in the old TV show "Branded" where the person was stood at attention, the buttons and insignia were ripped off his shirt, his sword was broken over his commander's knee and he was expelled from the post. The result will likely not even be a termination in the short term.

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OK....so, I'm ready now for someone to jump me big on this one. BSA has, for years, gotten by with ousting Scouts and Scouters who are willing to be honest and upfront about being gay in this organization. The ongoing reason for this is that homosexuality violates the basic moral principles of the organization. The Courts have stood behind this argument pretty consistently.

 

How are the actions of this Professional Scouter, a man trained in the goal and ideals of Scouting, regarding this any different? Leviticus may condemn one man for laying with another, but the Ten Commandments condemn the act of adultery which society pretty well accepts as premarital activity.

 

Do I know that anything happened that weekend? No. What is the perception, though? As a camp director, I had two staff members who were a couple...yes, they were a guy and a girl...I knew that when they wandered across the land bridge to the chapel after camp had quieted down, they were going to pray...but why not encourage other staff to join you? It's a matter of perception, and a lot of people perceived a lot...fellow staff, campers, and adult leaders.

 

The point is if there is any doubt, don't do it. If it can possibly be a cause of scandal to the organization, don't do it. An engagement is not a marriage in any dictionary. They are not "just about the same." Both are commitments of a sort, but one can be more easily broken than the other.

 

Let's get everything on the same page. If we are going to claim morality is the reason for some decisions, shouldn't that same rule apply in all cases?

 

Just my thoughts....

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The comments in this thread are very enlightening. I was interested in it since I started a separate thread about inappropriate relationships b/t 2 married leaders who are not married to each other.

 

My thoughts - and please hold the stones ----

 

The rules are the rules. I have rules with my job. I dont' necessarily like them or agree with them, but I follow them. I like my paycheck. There are certain morality rules with my job. I know the consequences if I break them.

 

Extra-marital sex and teen pregnancy is a huge issue in our society. Yes, some of these boys may have parents who have set very bad examples for their children. But does that mean that the leaders are therefore excused from their bad behavior? Show the kids that it is ok to act in a moral manner. Set a good example. No one is saying that they can't live together, but, for goodness sake, would it really have killed either one of them to sleep apart for a couple nights??? I'm not saying fire him or anything. But make it clear that this isn't acceptable and will not happen again. If he doesn't like the rule and leaves, then maybe this wasn't the right position for him to be in. I know a lot of parents who have their sons in scouts so they learn about doing the right thing b/c it's hard to get those lessons in any other place in today's society.

 

Kids today are a lot more sophisticated than you give them credit for. They know a lot more about sex and relationships. I hear younger kids talking about swingtown all the time. Let's have some decent behavior to counteract what they are seeing everywhere else and show them that there are other options. And remember that they talk amongst themselves. And if you are in a troop in any type of smaller community, you know whose married and who isn't.

 

And a final thought - if this is a group with teens with overactive hormones, do you want your son to be taught - at a boy scout campout - that it's ok to sleep with someone you're engaged to? B/c if it goes on at a boy scout campout and the boy scouts are always lecturing me about doing the right thing and following the oath, does that set a stronger example than what he sees in a tv program or somewhere else is ok behavior b/c even the scout leaders do it at the campouts? Does that then lead him to think well if that's ok, then it's ok for me to sleep with my girlfriend b/c we've been going steady a long time? just my thoughts....

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quote: "Liz....It depends on where the boys are from economically that is.....The poor probably assume they are not married and are doing the deed and could care less. The working poor wondering if they are married. The middle class hope they are married. The upper class assume they are married and are working on babys."

 

Well at least from the above you are avoiding the bias that states that all Blue State Liberals (like me) condone the unmarried issue.

 

Just a note - the above is a pretty discriminatory statement. All poor people are shacking up? I have found the opposite. And many upper class folks actually wait until they have enough money to have kids. Its a concept. And marrying later means less marriages statistically, which is a better "moral compass" for kids.

 

I cant wait to get into politics on this board! ;)

 

 

 

 

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Please pardon me playing devils advocate.

 

But what if the married couple are of the same sex? I know the BSA policy when it comes to scouts & leaders. But what about parents that are in a same sex relationship & have their adopted child in scouts?

 

Before anyone goes off the deep end. This is only a hypothetical question. Stranger things have happened.

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No problem. They're the same sex so it wouldn't matter.

 

Maybe they should change the rules to say that unmarried homosexuals may not tent together.

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