Pioneering Safely

[TheBroadGuy 10]

A scouter in our council is really into Pioneering. Building towers is a favorite. What are other councils doing with regard to building big pioneering projects while conforming to resident camp standard M-64 (pioneering towers meet safety stds comparable to COPE. ...activities over 6ft off the ground must have a reliable protection system and backup system. (http://www.bsa-gwrc.org/2008_Standards.pdf). What about a district events or unit campouts?

 

We want to make it fun. We have to keep it safe (understanding boys must be boys). Please don't send me up the chain in my council for advice. I'm a COPE/Climbing guy and it already bounced around our council and landed on me...

[shortridge 184]

Big doesn't have to mean tall, does it?

 

If this Scouter's goal is to develop the pioneering skills of the Scouts in the unit, a series of 5-foot-11-inch towers connected by bridges and walkways of various types would provide much the same benefit as a 30-foot-tall tower.

 

You also get more people enjoying the end result, climbing and clambering over the connected structures, rather than one person at a time inching up a single tall tower on belay.

 

That would seem the simplest way to meet M-64, as I read it. Resident camp standards may not be required for unit or district events, but it sure seems smart to follow them.

 

(Parenthetical aside: If the Scouter just likes showing off and building big stuff, fancying him- or herself an amateur engineer, and the Scouts aren't in charge, then politely suggest a refocusing of efforts.)

[FScouter 24]

The "M" standards you posted are written for national and council resident camps, no? If national Boy Scout resident camp standards were imposed on unit campouts, there would be no campouts. Same with district events.

 

As long as he is adhering to the safety and engineering principles found in the Pioneering merit badge book, I wouldn't be concerned.

[insanescouter 10]

The main thing I can suggest is refering to the guide to safe scouting ... there is a section in there that says something about monkey / rope bridges cant be more then a certain number of feet off the ground, can not be longer then a certain length, must be ancored using the figure 8 with 3 stakes technique and the base rope you walk on must be at least an inch thick ... so there may be more guidelines in there more specfic to your question...

 

Hope something in my wacky 2 cents helps...

 

Scott Robertson

http://insanescouter.org

 

Helping leaders one resource at a time...

[DeanRx 69]

I might be speaking out of turn as I am still involved at the cub level, but did a good amount of pioneering in my scout days. I have also seen (and my son has participated on) several pioneering structures at council sponsored events...

 

1) The G2SS is just that - a GUIDE !! While it gives great info, common sense and prudent saftey must rule the day. This is a direct quote to me on several occasions from my DE ! Just because you built something to G2SS protocol doesn't absolve the adults from providing oversight, discipline and saftey.

 

2) I was ALWAYS taught that ANY structure over 6 ft in height must be secured to the ground at its base (either by sinking the pole ends into earth or tethering to weight blocks) and that it should have guidelines in a minimum or 3 directions (better if 4) to stabilize it.

 

3) As a scout, one of the "bigger" adults was always the test dummy for any structure before a scout was allowed on it. Better to have an adult fall than a scout was the thinking... plus if it can hold the "fat dad" it can probably take anything a scout can dish out.

 

Now that I've said these things - at a recent council level event last spring, I saw 3 tiered towers, untethered. I saw rope bridges that were over 6 ft high. And, I saw structures I'm certain would have collapsed if anyone over 150 pounds set foot on them.

 

They were allowing cubbies to climb on these items! I let MY son do it too... WHY?

 

BECAUSE THERE WAS EXTRAORDINARY SAFETY PRECAUTIONS !! The 3 level tower had railings all the way up, had gymnastics mats under and around the base, and cubbies were encouraged to get fitted into a harness and "clip in" when reaching the top. The rope bridge, while high off the ground (walking rope was at about 8 ft over asphalt), had safety netting strung underneath the entry and exit points. They had adult safety personel stationed about every 5 feet for the entire length of the bridge and they allowed only 2 scouts on the bridge at a time (one on each span - never both on the same span @ the same time). May I also add that the anchor points were the trailer hitches of two 20ft box trucks.... not figure 8 with 3 stakes.

 

My point is - you can work under, over, around the G2SS (somewhat) as long as you mitigate the risk with appropriate safety and supervision. Its the oversight (or lack thereof) that makes the activity safe or dangerous....

[insanescouter 10]

Great points Dean

 

Scott Robertson

http://insanescouter.org

 

Helping leaders one resource at a time...

[Eagle92 110]

Dean,

The G2SS is not something to play around with. Yes you can go beyond G2SS in safety, and I recommend that, but the G2SS is the MINIMUM safety requirements. Failure to follow that can land you in some serious trouble should an accident occur.

 

In reference to the original question, what I was told is that ANY pioneering structure over 6 feet in height, whether at a council, district, or unit event, MUST be inspected by a NCS certified COPE Director. grant you that was back when COPE directors were still certified for doing climbing as well, but that is what I was told at NCS and when I worked at summer camp with an NCS instructor.

 

Maybe some of your contacts from NCS may be able to give you clarification. or try national risk management for advice.

(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

[FScouter 24]

It's unreasonable to expect that a troop pioneering project must be inspected by a certified NCS director. Were that the case, there would be mention of it in the unit trainings or the Scoutmaster Handbook or the Pioneering MB book or the G2SS. There isn't.

 

National Camp School is for folks that want to run a council camp program.

[MarkS 11]

If the G2SS where just a guide, there would be on print in BOLD typeface. It's mostly a guide but does state some policies.

That said, it doesn't appear to state any policies regarding pioneering, only guidelines (as far as I found).

[belayer_StLouis 10]

 

A note about what COPE and Climbing Directors do and National Camping School. It is true that NCS used to be only for summer camp leadership but COPE and Climbing are year around programs now and most folks who attend those sections are not just summer camp. We have never taught COPE or Climbing Directors, nor is a mention made of it in the staff sylabus, anything about Pioneering or Pioneering projects. It certainly isn't anything that comes under the heading of COPE; I think that started just to give guys a reference about belaying and spotting. If your council makes the summer COPE or Climbing Director pass on knowledge about spotting or belaying that sounds OK, everybody has to learn from someone.

[TheBroadGuy 10]

Thank you all for your feedback. This is what I hoped for. G2SS and the Resident Camp Standards were all I could find, too. Understanding National would want to comment on a specific request, and rightly remind the council they bear the liability anyway, I was looking for what other councils actually do.

 

I confess I am a NCS COPE director and NCS Climb/Rappel director and a regional COPE/Climbing inspector. Because of construction methods, I'll virtually guarantee no pioneering structure is going to pass a COPE inspection. At least not until we use class 1 utility poles and through-bolt lashings - neither of which is in the Pioneering MB book. G2SS merely recommends you protect over 6 feet like you would for COPE and sends you down the COPE/Climbing rabbit trail. belayer_StLouis is spot on regarding that.

 

I'm also a scoutmaster who wants to let my scouts have all the fun they can handle. A twist on a quote from above-mentioned respected colleague would be "Keep it Safe, Make it Fun." Che challenge is Safe vs Fun is an inverse curve. We can make all the fun we want if we ignore safety. If we make it safe beyond risk, there's no fun. In the days of our less-litigous youth, higher levels of risk were acceptable. Today it takes more training and knowledge to be able to identify, quantify, and mitigate the risks. At summer camp, the risk must be further mitgated due to the volumes of scouts versus leaders.

 

I wanted to make sure common sense was being relied upon instead of some rule or regulation I was unaware of. I had pretty much come up with the approach DeanRx spelled out. I heartily appreciate the outpouring of collective wisdom on this page. I will surely refer my tower-building scouter friend back to this forum.

[Kit Fox 10]

I'm the Scouter who Broad Guy was talking about. I'm in line to become Outdoor Skills director at our Council Summer Resident Camp. When I got thrown into the position of supervising the Outdoor Skills area this summer, I was told by the staff of that area that they couldn't build anything over 4 (FOUR) feet tall because the Cope people told them they couldn't and it was NATIONAL STANDARDS.

I'm trying to put the rumor mill to bed. I want to know what the BSA rules are. And I'll work out how to stay within them, as long as they allow the BOYS to pick their projects. What I want is the opportunity for the Scouts to pick and execute, under careful supervision, and with safety in mind, any pioneering project that's listed in the more than abundant literature accumulated in Scouting over the past century.

A 5'11" Byrnbach or hourglass tower would be stupid, and would be interpreted as such by the youth. The purpose of Pioneering in Scouting is not to give passersby the chance to clamber up or over stuff, but to prove that with simple materials - spars and cordage - relatively complex structures can be made, which can serve useful purposes and support the builder's weight and more.

Building models isn't a valid substitution. And finding a belay point for a 15' tower in a Pioneering area isn't practical, is it?

Thank you for all weighing in on this issue. The information and opinions will be useful for discussion.

The question still remains: Who, in Scouting, has jurisidiction over Pioneering areas in BSA resident camps? What, in writing, governs Pioneering in Resident camps?

Our quest continues.

Kit Fox 

[shortridge 184]

Congratulations on your new gig. That's a great job!

 

Please note that the question originally posed was not referring to resident camps, but to district or unit events.

 

For the question you now ask, it seems to me the best place to go would be to your NCS-certified camp director and program director. They should have the current resident camp standards on hand, and be able to interpret them to your specific situation. (If your camp sends you to NCS for outdoor skills certification, ask this question, point-blank, and bring diagrams of the structures you'd like to build. You'll get some great insight.)

 

That said, the resident camp standard (M-64) does seem pretty explicit to me, a layman with a pioneering (but not COPE/climbing) background. (All quotes from www.bsa-gwrc.org/2008_Standards.pdf)

 

M-64: "Scout camp structures such as monkey bridges, obstacle courses, and pioneering towers are expected to meet safety standards in equipment and supervision comparable to COPE, but do not require the employment of a COPE-trained director or instructor."

 

My interpretation: Okay, so you don't have to go to NCS to get COPE certification to build a tower or bridge. That's good. But you do have to use common-sense safety rules and techniques. Don't use rotten wood or frayed ropes, spot kids going across a monkey bridge, have a supervisory adult on hand at all times, etc.

 

M-64: "All high activities (6 feet or more above ground) must have a reliable protection system and back up system to protect participants."

 

My interpretation: If your feet go higher than 5'11", you need to have a protection system in place, plus a backup if that fails. Those terms could use some more definition, for sure. But see the final quote, below, for clarification.

 

M-64: "Equipment is checked at least every week."

 

My intepretation: Check your ropes and spars regularly, if not daily, and replace when necessary.

 

"Except for a COPE wall event or high beam activities, any time a camp participant is engaged in an activity that is 6 feet or more above ground level, the person is belayed. COPE wall events and high beam activities are carefully spotted."

 

My interpretation: If I'm climbing up a pioneering tower that takes my feet more than 6 feet off the ground, I should be on belay. Ditto for if I'm climbing a tree or walking on a roof. That goes for adults and youth.

 

Whether belaying is practical or not isn't the issue. That's the rule, and it's pretty clearly written.(This message has been edited by shortridge)(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Kit Fox 10]

Thanks, Shortridge.

 

That's what I'm afraid of.

 

If that's the rule, then the rule effectively prevents Pioneering, as it is currently taught.

 

Seems a bit dumb for BSA to print a book (Pioneering MB book) full of stuff that kids can't build except as models.

 

Jack Schmidt

 

 

 

[shortridge 184]

They can still do the big projects at unit events!

 

For what it's worth, I worked in a resident camp outdoor skills program area for five years, teaching or co-teaching Pioneering for most of those (and working as outdoor skills director one year). The biggest challenge I had was finding the time to work in the "big project."

 

The majority of the Scouts who came to the class barely knew their knots, let alone lashings. While there were some very notable exceptions, many needed basic or remedial instruction that ate up a lot of the class time. Splices in particular were a big problem - very few had splicing experience before coming to camp.

 

But it sounds like you're having the exact opposite experience, which is great!