Answers from Irving

[Beavah 205]

Yah, my apologies for bein' too lazy to track down the different threads, eh? I saw kb6's query and figured it was worth gettin' an answer on, and then while I was on the phone.... Anyway...

 

Status of LaserTag (from National Risk Management)

This is still considered a "wargame" and therefore remains an unauthorized activity.

 

Can a Venturer Registered in a Crew earn Quartermaster? (from Venturing Division)

No. They have to be registered in a Ship. Ignore ACP&P and the man behind the curtain! But it's OK if the crew all dual-registers in or as a Ship.

 

What's up with training? (from Volunteer Training Division)

People should be careful about drawing any hard conclusions from the training statistics. It's only recently that we've made a concerted effort to collect these statistics, and council level compliance in terms of reporting that data can still be spotty. If they did training some time ago those records might not be available, and when people move between councils or take out of council training they often get disconnected from their records. The online training we're now doing a better job of tracking. But its safe to say the training statistics are underreported.

 

We stand by the BSA's position stated in the National Parent Initiative materials - "The Boy Scouts of America takes great pride in our adult leadership." Scouting volunteers are good people, and it would be wrong to draw negative conclusions from the training statistics. Those are more a challenge for us to do a better job making training readily available to scouters as part of our service. Training should be viewed as just one component that supplements, but does not replace, reading and becoming familiar with the materials, learning from other scouters in the unit, district, or council, roundtables, work of the Commissioner Service, etc.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Beavah

and a good ol' Beavah too!

[Eamonn 61]

Not trying to hijack the thread or anything.

But...

 

I have never played laser tag and as of now have no plans to play.

I'm also not into video games. OJ has over the years managed to somehow get me to buy some of this stuff.

Right now he has an X-Box 360.

One of the games that seems to be very popular (OJ doesn't have it!) is Halo.

At several local OA/Scouting events,Halo competitions have been held.

Isn't Halo a war game? (I'm asking because I don't know!)

Eamonn.

[kb6jra 10]

Eamonn, you're technically correct, Halo (and all it's sequels) is a war game and its a lot of fun to boot.

 

I get my boys together sometimes for some Poker and video games. The boys look forward to it and my wife and I go through a bunch of pizzas, chips, cookies and gallons of soda. By the time I get them all sugared up, it's time to ship 'em home. It's good to be King!

 

Beavah, I read the email I was sent to say that Laser Tag was still under review and not expressly forbidden. From the looks of your info, RM is not liking Laser Tag and most likely will not approve it.

 

I dont' know why I'm so worried about it, I've never done Laser Tag or Paint Ball, when I was a kid, we had rubber band guns, and if you were best friends with the neighborhood paperboy, you had unlimited ammo.

 

 

[Oak Tree 15]

I have no doubt that your source is authoritative, Beavah, buy why on earth would they remove laser tag from the on-line G2SS list of unauthorized activities but still say that it's unauthorized when asked about it? Talk about your mixed messages...

 

Whoops, looks like it's back in the prohibited list on-line again. Ah well, missed my chance to go tag people with a weapon facsimile.

[Bob White 20]

I think by and large most leaders are good people. In fact I think many of them are good leaders. Over the years I have met hundreds of excellent scout leaders.

 

But there are over 1 million scout leaders in the BSA if the statistics were reversed an 70% of them were trained then that would still leave 300,000 untrained leaders in the program. Think about that number and the amount of damage to local and programs by THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND untrained Leaders.

 

On this forum alone you can see numerous examples of people in positions that are not only untrained by have not read resources for their jobs. Heck we have had threads where people who have been Scoutmasters for YEARS never read anything other than the requirement pages in the Boy Scout Handbook.

 

If you read a handbook and say you follow it you are berated by some members of this forum. The problem of untrained leaders is big enough that national has a division director crisscrossing the country meeting with groups of counsil professionals telling them that they need to address this issue through the relationships with Charter organizations to stress selection of quality individuals and get them to training.

 

I understand that the National wants to keep a smiley face on this issue from a marketing perspective. Even on my worst day if someone asked my how things were going my response is a smiling "Unbelievable". Did you really expect someoine at the national office to say to a caller or volunteer that there was a problem? They are trained better than that.

 

 

 

[CalicoPenn 729]

I dare say there is a big difference between "unauthorized" and "prohibited".

 

Where the statement is coming from is rather important as well. It is Risk Management using the term "unauthorized". My read on that is that should a unit go ahead and plan a Laser Tag outing, and someone gets hurt, BSA insurance may not cover any injuries, or lawsuit that may follow, as Laser Tag was an "unauthorized" activity. It appears to make Laser Tag a "do this at your own risk" activity.

 

Which brings up a question - could Capture the Flag be considered a "wargame" and be therefore "unauthorized"?

 

Calico

[OldGreyEagle 5]

I guess that would depend if the style of Capture the Flag your troop plays involves the use of simulated weapons pointed at animate objects

[Stosh 3452]

I do realize that there are some differences between Scouting and Venturing, but as a Civil War reenactor, I normally wear a real gun and sword when I am with my boys as a leader and when they are wearing the real gun and sword, I just carry my real military assault rifle with bayonet. :^)

 

Paintball, lasers and Halo is for the whimps. And before anyone complains, it's all ok with National and the fact that I have mounted cavalry with swords and guns to back me up and if that's not enough firepower, I have scouts manning 6 and 12 lb. Napoleon cannon as well. When the boys do WW I and II we can toss in gregades, M-1 rifles, 45-Colt automatics, a couple of armored personnel carriers and Maxim machine guns.

 

Never having to grow up is a great thing.

 

As far as National approval is concerned, anything within the hobby's scope and safety is approved by them. Is it contrary to the PC image of Scouting? Maybe, but we get a lot of boys into scouting with a program like this. Yes, our unit, working with Scout Troops have had 6 Eagle Scouts pass through our ranks in the past 9 years.

 

It took us over 2 years working with National to set up an standard for them that would allow scouts to participate in this type of hobby. We found them to be very easy to work with and understanding when it came to the specifics of how this was all done. Now after 9 years, I see that some of the specifics are now finding their way into the GTSS literature. Whereas the boys cannot own a large bore artillery piece, with national certification in safety, they can all fall in on the piece and operate it with the blessings of National.

 

These are far more serious issues than whether or not one can aim a laser weapon at another person or play a war-video game.

 

Once the Scouts get over their anti-military stance they adopted in the early 1970's following the Vietnam War, things may in fact return somewhat to the dyanmics of military leadership that the BSA program is based on in the first place, but isn't publicized as such.

 

Stosh

 

 

[nldscout 18]

Not that I would doubt what Beavah has stated people at national told him, but my question who told you.

 

Give us a name and position of this person. Second where does it say what they are saying in writing. If nothing else BSA does publish the rules on paper.

[evmori 11]

Damage done by untrained leaders? You know this for a fact? Could it be possible that most of these untrained leaders are just new leaders who haven't been to training yet? And if there is such a concern for the damage done by untrained leaders, why isn't training mandatory?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[DYB-Mike 10]

Im not against a good game of Capture the Flag and I dont have a problem with my Cub Scout son participating in laser tag in a non-scouting venue.

 

That being said, I dont agree with jblake47s statement that the scouts should return to to the dyanmics of military leadership that the BSA program is based on in the first place. I believe this is a fallacy, at least as how the founders envisioned the movement.

 

Granted the roots of B-Ps program are militaristic, but the horrors of the Great War (WWI), the War to End All Wars (wishful thinking), lead B-P himself to distance himself from militarism, and in later speeches he had stated that the focus of scouting was primarily a brotherhood of service of boys and men. B-P would emphasize character building through healthy camplife and handy pioneer training, and said flat out that scouting was non-military. These ideals meshed with the American Scouting founding fathers, Dan Beard and Earnest Thompson Seton. Seton would later quit the organization due to its emphasis on militarism.

 

B-Ps evolved vision of scouting, while emphasizing public service, which could include defense of ones country, was not that of a paramilitary organization.

 

I embrace this evolved view and consider the focus of Scouting as something that will train my sons to be good citizens, not necessarily to be good soldiers. May Capture the Flag be nothing more than a game!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[emb021 16]

"Isn't Halo a war game? (I'm asking because I don't know!)"

 

Yes.

 

So is Chess.

 

Heck, in one OA Lodge I'm in, Risk is a popular game, and they even created a large size Risk board for use in a big Risk tournament game at Section Conference.

 

I guess when the 'war game' is abstracted to little game pieces its no big deal, but when its played out with characters 'really' shooting at others its another matter.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

 

http://www.thescoutingpages.org.uk/speeches.html

 

Read the Message to the public

 

 

Ladies and Gentlemen. I have been asked to explain to you what the Boy Scout movement is. It is a tall order to compress into three minutes the ideals that are being followed by over a million and a half of boys. The movement primarily is a brotherhood of service of boys and men. Its school of character of citizenship, of personal efficiency for the good of the community. This sounds high-falootin. For what is as we know it, a band of bare-kneed rascals, with cowboy hats and staves in their hands. But remember, you cannot give them character through ordinary classroom methods. You have to use other means. The boys are eager to join in a jolly game of fellowship, with its Healthy camp life and handy pioneer training. Their moral character is developed by our method of self government under a code of chivalry in the Scout law. Their spiritual character is developed by their being brought face to face with the wonders and beauties of nature. The boy is naturally active, rather than passive in temperament, and we give him opportunities of performance rather than of profession. Scouts make themselves efficient not merely for their own good but in order to be helpful to the community. In other words, they train to be good citizens. Character is far more essential to a successful career of a man. Character in its individual members is essential for the character of the nation. And character in the nation is similarly essential to its welfare. As a school of character therefore, the Scout movement is non-military, non-sectarian, non-political and non-class. On these lines the movement has come in the space of twelve years to be adopted by every civilized country. The brotherhood spirit has thus grown up automatically. It is forming a personal tie not only between the states of the British Commonwealth, but also between the different foreign counties, it may just supply that soul which is needed to make the form of the League of Nations a living force, such as will render war impossible in the future. The movement is growing every day in size and in effect. All we want are more men in this great brotherhood of service to do this joyous work for God, their country, and the boys. The work, for all who try it can testify, is well worthwhile.

 

The three aims of scouting are mentioned, Charactor, Citizenship and Personal Fitness as is reverence. He mentions self-government which is what we call "Boy Lead". B-P states that scouting "... is non-military, non-sectarian, non-political and non-class."

 

It would take a military man to understand that a brotherhood of scouts cutting across national borders could make war impossible. A man could not kill a fellow scout, even if from another country. I think this short speech shows B-P's sense of humor and hs reasons for scouting, I think its very powerful