Scouting as School...or a Game

[Its Me 10]

BW Wrote There are variety of better ways than either of the methods we are offered in the opening post.

 

I'll bite, post one here that is mutually exclusive to the two methods Bev posted.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Looking at the title of this thread, I have pondered an answer over the past few days. I even shared a vission with a fellow moderator during a time when we werent being scoundrels.

 

The title Scouting as School. Or a Game seems to indicate that Troops choose one way or the other and I believe that is false.

 

I think there is a Scouting Philosophy Continuum, but its end points are not Scouting as School or as a Game. On one end of the Scouting Philosophy Continuum you have what I will call the Classic BSA Philosophy. The Classic BSA Philosophy is based on adherence to the Policies and Procedures of the BSA and the published Training Syllabi. Proponents of this philosophy see the BSA as a national organization and believe that Troop in Florida should have the same organization as a Troop in Maine or Hawaii.(elcted Sentior Patrol Leader, Patrol Leaders, PLC, New Scout Patrol, etc)

 

BTW, they would also wear the same uniform as well. When talking to proponents of this Philosophy, strains of The Battle Hymn OF The Republic seem to be present although no source of the music may be found.

 

On the other side of the Continuum is a more relaxed approach. More of a Laissez Faire Philosophy. In this Philosophy BSA policies and procedures are seen more as guidelines and as long as the Chartering Organization is on board, then just about anything is ok. Proponents of this philosophy tailor their program to the individual needs of the unit and follow the intent of BSAs regulations, if not their letter.

 

Now, both have as their Mission, instilling the values of the Scout Oath and Law so that young people will make ethical decisions over the course of their lifetime. Their approach can lead to clashes with each other. The Classic BSA proponent may be thought of as coming down the mountain, eyes flashing and carrying the published word of BSA in both arms. They see the spreading of the word as their paramount duty. Fully uniformed at all times, they can recite chapter and verse all the rules and regulations on anything you ask, from whether or not BSA allows sheath knives (they do BTW) to how best to select Quality Leaders. While characterized by some as rule following drones, they can be lots of fun and merely desire order in a chaotic world.

 

Then there is the Laissez Faire Philosophy of Scouting. Much more relaxed. The lead proponents of this philosophy is laid back, more apt to have a uniform shirt on with a rainbow tie dyed headband wearing rose colored sunglasses with lenses in the shape of a heart. Pants most likely will be faded jeans with a few worn through patches and oddly enough, when talking to such individuals the strains of In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida seem to be present although no source of the music may be found.

 

Now, both philosophies espouse the same thing. A Boy Lead unit where youth find challenges and support to meet those challenges with the guidance of well intentioned volunteers. Now, with identical goals you would think there would be mutual respect, but this is not always the case. Sometimes proponents of the Classic BSA Philosophy are portrayed as being the Knights of the BSA, charging into the fray to spread the way of the BSA through any means possible melding the brains of the great unwashed (read untrained) while the Laissez Faire proponents are more apt to be portrayed as itinerant preachers along the lines of Todd Rundgren or Exidor. They roam about and tell people not to worry about Rules and Regulations, that as long as you have the boys best interest at heart, all is well.

 

I must say neither is completely right or wrong, although I admit a bias so if it shows through, I am sorry. All units will fall somewhere on the Continuum. Sometimes they may be very Classic while on other topics much more Laissez Faire. The mix of philosophy is dictated by the personality and understanding of the BSA program by the adults. Is one side wrong? Nope, I dont think so although I have my ideas but that is not as issue. On a thread recently I read where a Troop petitioned and received permission from their Council Executive to wear Olive BDUs instead of the uniform pants. Now, the Council Executive does not actually have the power to do this, say the Classic proponents, but the Laissez Faire group says look at the good things the scouts learned and as long as it kept them in Scouting, what does it hurt?

 

We talk a lot about respect of other ideas, respecting both philosophies of scouting and realizing that all units fall somewhere on the continuum is a start.

[Bob White 20]

Twp points I would like to address in this post are ones made by Firekat and Pappy, Beavah.

 

I think Firekat raises and excellent point in that now days time is a premium. You cannot expecct a scout to dilly dally waiting for adventure or for information. One of the elements that makes video games so attractive to scouts at this age is that they require the psrticipant to learn a few specific skills sets and as they take part in the virtual adventure they are advanced to a higher skill level where they must learn new skills or be more proficient at the ones they have already learned in order to get to the next level.

 

Sound familiar?

 

If you think you lose scouts to video games it is because they are doing a better job of using scouting methods than the unit you serve is doing.

 

That brings us to Pappy's comment that "I don't need no stinkin badges" true as an adult you should be progressed passsed that stage of development for most achievements, and have developed a concept of self-reward. A Scout age youth however does need the badges. Recognition is not only a large part of the development of their self essteem, (but like in the video game) the satisfaction of advancing to "the next level" is a large part of what keeps them playing and learning more skills. The recognition program is a large part of the Advancement Method.

 

Scouting is not just a game, it is a game with a purpose and we are supposed to be the teachers of both.

 

Finally, Beavahs comment in his opening post to the thread,

 

Patrols decide to run some canoe trips. Boy signs up because it sounds like fun. No classes, no lesson plans, no curriculum.

 

Isn't safety afloat a lesson plan? Isn't safe swim a lesson plan? Isn't the older scout teaching the younger scouts a class? A set of merit badge requirements is a curriculum.

 

You can't really believe that if a the older scout says "grab the thwart" that the untrained scout will have any idea what he means without it being pointing to and saying "that is a thwart" isn't that instruction? Are they not in an outdoor classroom? Did no one have a plan to teach that?

 

Lastly, you what the scout to learn "without memorization". How exactly does a person recall information for use if it is not committed to memory? Perhaps what you meant isn't that scouting should not be "learning by rote" in which case one would have to wonder how you learned the Scout Oath and Law, and how you teach it today?

 

 

 

 

[Its Me 10]

Wow! did you hit a nerve with this one Bev. Clearly it is a school to some of these men. A school for what? Character development? No. To these men it is a professional development course. This can be seen in BW's earlier posts where he wanted 90 minutes of training for a new scout patrol. Every aspect every second is designed not for the mere amusement. Not for the glorious celebration of childhood comoraderie but for programed school activities. Yawn! I'll use BW other example of the video games. These games are like the scouting program, they are complex and the skills build on each other. How do kids learn these skills? By Bev's no.2 method. There is no Video game school. Kids learn best and even faster by playing the game and seeking advice from the kid next to him. Now I am not a huge fan of video games but I can appreciate that cognitive memory skills, and logic deduction skills are honed playing these games. Just like Trust, is learned playing scouting. Or kindness. BW you can keep your charm school for boys. I'm going canoeing. ana gada davida honey don't you know that I'm loving you....

 

edited to correct typos(This message has been edited by Its Me)

[Hiromi 9]

Boffo response "Its Me"!

 

But I have one question for you Mr. Smarty pants-

 

How do you make your print hot magenta colored?!

 

 

Pappy

[John-in-KC 311]

You format your post using the "Format this post" link below the <b>Your Message on the left side of the message input screen.

[Bob White 20]

It's Me,

Seriously, what elements of anything I have posted leads you you label it a Charm School?

[Hiromi 9]

Bob,

 

I got from It's Me's post that learning from doing- i.e. practicing scout craft by doing an activity frequently is a more robust and effective way to learn something than to learn it in a Merit badge class (for instance).

 

You can go over lashings in a gym during night time BS meeting, or you can build fortifications with a time limit and restrictions on what kind of lashings you may use in the forest as the enemy approaches.. One is abstracted into a schooling model, the other is fun and games-man-ship and the skill is also emphasized.

 

Lots of canoeing trips with the skills learned over time beats in every respect a one time canoe class at a Coucuil summer camp. This is the problem with badges and rank advancement mills- it gives the scout and the scouter the illusion that the rank and the badge symbolize mastery. ANd in the end- it lowers the commoditie's value.

 

I have met Eagle scouts who didnt know what orienteering was, let alone how to do it. And I'm sure youall have seen similar examples of badge encrusted incompetents.

 

SO that says a little bit about book learning and badge classes as opposed to spending a summer in the woods scouting getting lost and finding your way back.

 

It isnt an either or- Just more Its ME than Bob White.

 

 

Pappy

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

"I have met Eagle scouts who didnt know what orienteering was, let alone how to do it. And I'm sure youall have seen similar examples of badge encrusted incompetents.

 

SO that says a little bit about book learning and badge classes as opposed to spending a summer in the woods scouting getting lost and finding your way back."

 

No Pappy I do not understand your logic here. If you meet a badge incrusted incompetent, you are facing the product of incompetence alright. The incompetence is rooted in the nimno who signed the papers that allowed the scout to get all those badges. Whether the issue is book learning or practical application is not the point here. Either the scout did the requirement as written or he did not. Orienteering merit badge says the scout will cover three different courses so if he cant do it, its not book learning fault, its the moron who signed off on a scout who didnt do the requirements.

 

I dont always appreciate Bob Whites style of posting. I think sometimes he get a little too preachy, but can we talk about what he says and not make up stuff about him? He has his philosophy if scouting in his head and does not deter from it. Thats a good thing. If you disagree with it, that is your right and your opinion, but lets not asy his way means things he never said nor does following what he says mean you end up with badge encrusted incompetents, feel sorry for the scout yes, and then see what you can do about the adults who perpertrate a fraud on the scout that he actually is worthy of the badges he wears but do not lay book learning as the reason. Miserable adults are the reason

 

[Bob White 20]

Pappy AND It's Me,

 

Who are you getting this impression from? Certainly I have never supported the practices you attribute to me. What element of anything I have posted has suggested that troop or patrol scouting is or should be a sit down and listen traditional classroom style program?

 

When did I post anything resembling or supporting an advancement mill?

What SPECIFIC element or elements suggest a charm school?

 

If your idea of scouting is to get untrained youth, that belong to other people, lost in the woods to "see if they can find their way back" then God help the ones who do not. That is very irresponsible behavior no matter what you believe good scouting might be.

 

Your critisms are absolute fiction, I never suggested any of them and I welcome any evidence that I did.

 

Hers is a great exaple from It's Me

This can be seen in BW's earlier posts where he wanted 90 minutes of training for a new scout patrol.

 

I NEVER SAID THAT. This was an intentional misquote by It's Me to misrepresent what I posted. What I said was that every part of a troop's 90 minute meeting can be used to teach, practice, or apply a scout skill.

 

Anyone paying attention during BASIC Scout leadership training knows that. Now everyone may not take full advantage of the meeting to do that, but that is what the meeting is designed to do.

 

Such intentional misrepesentations seems to have become a common tool on this forum as a way to discredit posters who support the BSA program and its methods.

 

 

[FScouter 24]

Hey, Beavah set up the "good guys vs. bad guys" scenario in the opening post. Trouble is, everyone seems to be taking the side of the good guys and there's no bad guy to put down. Since Bob is the guy everyone loves to hate it looks like one or two of you have opted to declare him to be the bad guy. It's a tough crowd, yes.

[Eagledad 2777]

Great Scouting All

>>It isnt an either or- Just more Its ME than Bob White.

[Hiromi 9]

Bob,

 

I'm Sorry I misrepresented your postion. I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing it out. Piling on is so much fun, soemtimes I get carried away.

 

Back to the Games thread - Yes - it wasn't the scouts's fault that he was poorly formed. You're right of course.

 

My point was that you do see alot of schooling model as opposed to what I think BP intended in scout meetings and the approach to advancement and badges- getting boys out in the woods practicing these skills in the context of scouting- and not abstracted-

 

 

I see dishonesty and dad's and mom's doing the work for their kids alot. Maybe I live in a particularly bad scouting neighborhood.

 

 

Pappy

[Gold Winger 9]

"I see dishonesty and dad's and mom's doing the work for their kids alot. Maybe I live in a particularly bad scouting neighborhood."

 

nah, that's the world today. Look at Pinewood Derby cars. Look at how many parents do school projects for their kids. How about the parents that fill out the college applications for their kids?

 

I know a woman who took a day off work and drove 160 mile round trip to take her son a text book that he left behind after a weekend visit.

[Beavah 205]

Miserable adults are the reason

 

Yah, this is the second half of the First Way approach, eh? If the outcomes aren't what yeh want, blame the adults rather than lookin' at the whole package. Seems like that response goes hand in hand, eh? I suppose I'm blamin' the adults, too, in a way... but only for an incomplete understandin' or havin' a vision that might not be quite what it could be. An opportunity for growth, but not miserable .

 

Isn't safety afloat a lesson plan? Isn't safe swim a lesson plan? Isn't the older scout teaching the younger scouts a class? A set of merit badge requirements is a curriculum.

 

All those things can be turned into school, sure. If that's the way we view things as adults. But we don't have to view things that way as adults, eh?

 

EagleDad talks about this more eloquently than I do. On the one hand you can organize a class as a TG and ASM, and the lads can be taught the 8 points of SSD and the reason for 'em. On the other hand, you can just go swimmin'. The older boys run SSD. Middle boys follow it. Young boys pick it up by watchin' the example of all the older ones, eh? And by small pointers and coachin' along the way.

 

The first is more like a school, or those inane waterfront lectures we all sit through at the start of camp. The second is more like a family, or group of friends - rather than designating one teaching authority and class time, everyone's in on the act. As It's Me points out, it's more like a video game.

 

Dat's probably the only resemblance this thread bears to OGE's notion of a continuum, eh? I think OGE's continuum is unrelated to the school/game thing, except in one way: if an adult really feels that all competence comes from authority, then they'll probably be more likely to set up an adult-as-teacher school situation, to emphasize that. Aside from that, lots of very orthodox BSA types are advocates for the Second Way.

 

Merit badge requirements aren't a curriculum, BTW. That's not their function. They're an assessment - a test. In Scouting, the curriculum should be far richer than teaching to the test.

 

Beavah