Do away with advancement?

[Eamonn 61]

Yes I said do away with advancement!!

Over the past few weeks I have been meeting with and talking to small groups of young people, mainly aged 14 and up.

Some were Scouts who had quit, some were never in Scouting. I have also talked with kids who are in the program.

My unofficial, unscientific, with an enormous margin of error poll had a goal of looking at what worked and what didn't work. What youth thought about Scouts, what they liked and disliked.

As you might guess uniforms are not very popular.

Many if not most of the Boys who had been in Scouts and had quit said that they really liked the activities (Camping was very popular) They enjoyed being in a group with kids their age, didn't like the "Little Kids"!

Most said that they thought working for Merit Badges and trying to move up in rank was just silly. Many said that they never really set or had any "Advancement Goals" and that advancement was something that they felt forced to do!

One 16 year old boy said that it was great when he was a Cub Scout to go to the front of the hall and receive something and how proud he felt that he was making his parents proud, which made him feel happy.

He had crossed over into a Troop, his parents, Scoutmasters and the adults seemed to have set a goal for him to make Eagle Scout. At first he worked on the badges and the ranks. But he did so only to please others.

When he decided that he wasn't interested in "Collecting stupid merit badges" (His words) It seemed that the pressure was turned up and the heat was on!! Of course being a teenager the more people got on him the more he was turned off!! Till he quit!!

A lot of the kids I talked with said that they just didn't like all the fuss that was made about advancing.

 

Seems to me that we have a lot of youth who are happy to participate in the activities that we can offer. They want to have fun, join in the adventure, but they see the challenges as being things that they participate in not as meeting requirements set by others.

 

Of course I'm very much aware of the methods of Scouting and know that Advancement is there and has been there for a very long time.

It can be said that a Lad can join and if he wants can decide not to get involved in the advancement program, but looking at most troops and many Council ran Summer Camps, this might be really hard.

Our advancement programs do make it easy for people to set goals. The Advancement program does a lot to help adults with a framework for the activities and the program offered. (Imagine the problem some Council ran camps would have if the Merit Badge classes were not there to fill in the time?)

But I think we could still meet the Aims of Scouting and fulfill the Vision and Mission if we were to move the empathise from Advancement to Participation.

I'm in no way saying that what we have doesn't work or hasn't worked, but maybe it's time for a change of mindset?

Eamonn

[Gold Winger 9]

I agree with you and the boys. There is toooo much pressure to advance from day one. First Class in one year. Why? Because it keeps the revenue coming in.

 

If you poll guys who were Scouts back in the 60s and 70s and before, you'll find quite a few who aged out but never made it past Life or Star. I even know one who never made it past 2nd Class. Back then you had to be motivated to make Eagle because the parents weren't pushing. They stuck around because it was fun but they didn't want to work on merit badges or take a position of responsibility. That's why the military put a premium on Eagle because Eagles sought out responsibility. Now . . .

 

One problem with the "little kids" is the way that our society has changed. Back in the good old days before every activity was organized, kids of all ages played together. It wasn't unusual to find high school kids and grade schoolers playing touch football. The job of the older boys was to teach the little guys how to play. As a little guy, you couldn't wait until you got big enough to play tackle instead of touch. Heck, we'd play army, football, baseball, and go on bike rides with mixed age groups.

 

There were other benefits to these mixed age groups. The little guys learned that there were different behaviors for different situations. For example, if you're sitting around after a football game with the guys, it is okay to blast gas or belch. However, if you're 12 and you see you 16 year old friend chatting with a young lady, you don't walk up and belch. At least not if you don't want to get pounded.

 

The result was, back in the old days, the older guys figured that it was their job to teach the younger guys in Scouting.

 

Maybe our solution should be to encourage boys to abandon Boy Scouts for Venturing. That way they can advance if they want but the pressure would be off.

[LongHaul 10]

I too would like to do away with advancement but for the opposite reasons from Eamonn. I want to get rid of those that are interested only in advancement. Notice I say advancement but not necessarily skill acquisition or growth. These are the boys, and parents, that are interested only in making Eagle. They look to get past Personal Management early so the budget and record keeping can be all zeros. Bobby does not handle money. Camping is done in the back yard. Where does it say the tent has to be pitched outside? Acquisition of scouting skills, cooking, camping, hiking, are viewed as necessary evils. Merit Badge Clinics, Midways, Colleges and GiveaWays are seen as the answer to everything. They have the DAC and CAC on speed dial and can quote the ACPP flawlessly. Loose the advancement and I loose half my problem. The other half is those boys that think merit badges are silly. This is not a camping club, this is not a boys club, and this is not an adult supervised play date program. If these boys are not interested in personal growth thru the outdoor program and merit badge program then Im not interested in providing them with my time. Send me the boys that want to be Boy Scouts and all that entails.

LH

 

[Eagledad 2779]

>>I'm in no way saying that what we have doesn't work or hasn't worked, but maybe it's time for a change of mindset?

[Gold Winger 9]

I don't know if we can change the mindset, it is too deeply entrenched in our society now.

 

Dance, baseball, soccer, football at age five or younger. Why? So they can get out there, learn the game and learn to WIN! Fun is irrelevant. Why WIN? Winning is how you make the varsity and get scholarships. The same is true for Scouting. Get out there and WIN and by Jove if I have to shove you along the path, I'll make you win!

 

Unfortunately, many don't want to play varsity or make Eagle and rebel against the parents shoving. What do they do? They don't build hot rods anymore or play pick-up football. They turn into blobs that sit around and play video games because those are "fun" and there is no parental pressure to preform.

 

Parents really need to take a chill pill and get off the AAU/Eagle/AP Physics/SAT Prep train and step back and let kids go at their own rate. The cream will rise to the top. We need both leaders and followers.

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Maybe its not time to do away with advancement, but to remember that Advancement is one of 8 methods used to deliver the program. It may be a cliche to say so, but no method is more important or of lesser significance than another. Perhaps if units delivered the program presenting all methods equally, the pressure for advancement would lessen and scouts could enjoy themselves and the program. It's a thought

[T164Scoutmaster 10]

"Maybe its not time to do away with advancement, but to remember that Advancement is one of 8 methods used to deliver the program. It may be a cliche to say so, but no method is more important or of lesser significance than another. Perhaps if units delivered the program presenting all methods equally, the pressure for advancement would lessen and scouts could enjoy themselves and the program. It's a thought"

 

 

My exact thoughts! Forget about the advancement process adn concentrate on what scouting is. A Game with a purpose. Don't stress the advancement stress the fun. Schedule the outings and expose the scouts to things they wouldn't normally get to experience. Help those boy leaders to come up with unique expereinces, one of a kind outings, and through the planning process have the boys interested in advancing discover how that can happen with the outings they schedule,

[prairie 10]

Why is it a boy will work himself into the ground for years for just a chance to be on a high school varsity team. Most any boy can achieve Eagle if he wants it, maybe thats the proablem, Eagle is too EASY! So it has little cred with your school peers, and girls.

[Lisabob 13]

I have been told that the main reason for the push to get boys to 1st Cl. is that there is some evidence that boys who make 1st Cl. stick with scouting longer than those who don't. Of course this is somewhat tautological I suppose (those who stick around longer are also more likely to make 1st class), and it may also be the case that there are other factors influencing BOTH which boys are likely to make 1st Cl. AND which ones will stick with the program. In that very likely event, the proposed "solution" of "first class, first year" fails to recognize the reality of the situation and is a false answer to the wrong question. But still, it persists. And there probably is some degree of truth to the notion that boys who have gained proficiency in the basic outdoor skills that are included in T-2-1 ranks are likely to enjoy camping more than those who are unskilled.

 

But beyond that, I'm not so sure Eamonn has it wrong. I'll use my son's experience (anecdotal and obviously not sufficient for generalizing, but here I go anyway) with summer camp as a basis. My son has gone to three separate BSA scout camps now, will attend his fourth this summer. Each time he has signed up for a bunch of MBs because that's what you do. He enjoyed some of the MB classes, disliked others, and didn't finish most of them. The fun he had at camp came not from earning MBs, but from having experiences along the way. He could care less about the badges themselves, with a couple of notable exceptions. And for the most part, the things he has NOT liked about BSA summer camp have been related to poorly-run MB classes led by unenthusiastic staff, where the focus was on checking off and "getting" rather than doing and trying and learning.

 

So this summer he'll most likely sign up for whatever "high adventure" option the camp makes available to older scouts instead of for a bunch of MB classes - he'll be 14 so he'll be allowed to do COPE or other similar programs. I think he'll enjoy that a lot more because there will be no pressure to earn merit badges and he can enjoy the program for what it has to offer. And hopefully, because the expectation isn't that boys in those programs will "get" a bunch of badges at the end of the day, the quality of the program will be better too. No need to herd the kids through a bunch of requirements. Just teach, learn, and have fun.

 

As for rank advancement - my son was initially all fired up to earn tenderfoot, but the troop he was in made this difficult to do at the time and it was almost a year before any of the boys in his cohort finished their tenderfoot rank requirements. After that my son lost interest in rank advancement. He's only at 2nd class now because the camp he went to last year required him to be at that rank to sign up for a class he wanted to take, so he got things in gear and made the rank in the nick of time. And I expect he'll only get to 1st class if/when there is something else he wants to do, for which 1st Cl. is a pre-requisite. Who knows if he'll earn Eagle. He has told me he isn't interested in that. Honestly I hope he'll change his mind down the road, but he has some time still and if it isn't important to him then I'm not going to force the issue. It isn't *my* rank, it is his.

[John-in-KC 311]

Barry,

 

Part of the mindset is the cost of post-secondary education, be it university, community college, or vocational-technical. A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA IS GOOD ENOUGH TO BE A GROCERY BAGGER.

 

I compared my cost of education, in terms of how much income my Dad diverted to it, to what I will pay for EagleSon. Dad ended up spending 6 months income across a 4 year education, or about 1/8 diversion.

 

I will pay, based on current year numbers, about 18 months income across a 4 year education. That's a 300% growth factor for a similar product.

 

I suspect part of the mindset comes from parents trying, very hard, to level the playfield for their children. That implies parents have to find what children like at an early age, and then focus on it.

 

That's specialization, and the opposite of what we want to do in Scouting. We're interested in the whole man (and I hope GSUSA in the whole woman). We want the youngster to specialize when he sees the moment, not early on.

 

The fix is not specific to Scouting; it's solving an endemic problem in American society. I have CD of "Man of La Mancha." I'll gladly loan it to anyone who thinks they have a clue; they'll need it... and that's sad.

 

EDITED TO INCLUDE: E, eliminating advancement will cause an immediate and precipitous drop in membership. Unless we get very, very good, much better than we are now, at outdoors education, Scouting as we know it would disappear inside a decade.

 

We'd have to FOCUS on the Outdoors Method, and we'd have to have certification for each task and each instructor. I know Kudu debates whether we even have the Patrol Method, but a 2d/3d order consequence of removing advancement would be eliminating youth leadership and youth-youth skill training.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Beavah 205]

Yah, Eamonn must be channelin' my thoughts.

 

I sat in on a Life Scout BOR in a local troop last month. Boy was a fine Life Scout candidate, has about a year to go before his 18th birthday. Talk came 'round to Eagle.

 

Boy said "no." Firmly. He's seen other kids go through it, felt the parental pressure. Doesn't want to deal with the hassle, the paperwork. A couple of the troop committee really got on his case (inappropriately, IMO) and only reinforced his notions. He said he only finished First Class to go on high adventure trips, and Star and Life sort of fell into his lap just because he was doin' stuff that was "natural."

 

Funny thing is, the kid is stayin' in until 18, serving as ASPL and instructor, willing to be an ASM after that, and clearly was a fine lad.

 

So here's a kid like Eamonn's bunch - achievin' exactly what we want him to learn through Scouting, who is being turned off by Advancement.

 

Been thinkin' about that for a month now.

 

Sure does seem like if a Method ain't working, it's time to drop da method, eh? Especially in Boy Scouting, where things are supposed to be youth-run, but Advancement is almost always an adult thing.

 

I can't say as I'd miss it. We'd still be teachin' kids the stuff we care about, and still be recognizin' kids for achievements on occasion. We just wouldn't be turnin' it into such a production. And while some good guys out there like Eagledad are able to keep the mindset right, it seems like the presence of all the Advancement stuff engenders a lot of folks to get the wrong mindset. Just look at da text used here on da forums havin' adult debates about picky Advancement issues .

 

Might be better just to do away with it and "lead us not into temptation."

 

Beavah

 

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[ASM915 90]

How about some of you Scouts(er) who have been to Haliburton, or other Canadian summer-camps give us a comparison on the programing differences. I here those up north have more of an emphasize on programing, not MB's and advancement.

[jr56 92]

I say change the mindset. Some boys like advancement, and others don't. I never have liked the 1st class within a year. Most kids I have seen, I think 2-3 years is more realistic. The big thing is I think advancement should be available for the boys who want it. As has been stated repeatedly, advancement is only 1 of the 8 methods of scouting, stop making it such a top priority and just let the boys have a good time and enjoy what scouting has to offer. If they stay active in the program, and the program is run correctly, advancement will take care of itself.

[Eagledad 2779]

>>I here those up north have more of an emphasize on programing, not MB's and advancement.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Remember, First Class in a Year is about programming in the Troop. That all the necessary items to reach first class are presented to the scout, not that the scout makes first class in a year. The Troop offers the program, if the scout does not avail himself of the opportunity, then the onus is not on a the Troop to bend over backwards to refurnish the opportunity to the scout. Perhaps a large in house campaign on Advancement is needed, not to eliminate, but to educate its proper use