Troop Event or Family Event?

[Chippewa29 13]

Funny, I was coming to the forum to post this issue when I saw Beavah's thread. I know this is similar, but I think it needs it owns thread.

 

About three times a year, my troop will take a long distance trip to go white water rafting or some other high adventure trip (summer) or museum (winter). It seems that we have some parents in our troop that see these trips as a chance to take a family vacation. Not only does dad come, but mom and/or a sibling or two. We've even had a couple of times where a family has invited extended family members or family friends to join us. Often, there won't be a Scout on the trip who doesn't have a parent with them.

 

When we go on these trips, the patrol method is non-existent and kids defer to their parents before the troop leadership (youth or adult). There has even been times when a family will leave the troop for part of the outing because they "want to do their own thing". I often feel like a fifth wheel on these trips.

 

Is it just me, or does this seem too much like Cub Scouts? These trips are fun, but they don't seem like they are helping the kids develop or the troop become a more cohesive unit.

[Lisabob 13]

Sounds like this is something that has developed over time into a troop culture/troop tradition issue.

 

If you want to really put a stop to it - encourage the boys to choose quite different sorts of activities for the next year. THings that the extended family & friends of troop 123 probably won't see as open invites to a family vacation. Or start requiring that all adults be either registered leaders or parents/guardians (I can't see allowing invites to go out to the neighbor's friend's cousin or other far-flung adults as an acceptable use of troop resources!)

 

If you want to keep this tradition alive but limit it in some way - consider making it more of an official "come one, come all" kind of event and do it once a year. Everyone looks forward to it, everyone understands that this one event just isn't really typical troop camping. Of course this means you should have appropriate program support in place for all those little kids who show up too. Our troop does something like this with an annual thanksgiving dinner campout/cook out. This year we had close to 100 people there, most of whom came out for the afternoon/evening, ate dinner, and went home. (They paid for dinner). It is always a huge success, allows families to feel "part of" things, allows us to draw in community supporters, etc..

 

If you want to change things in a slightly more subtle way - start putting volunteer apps in the hands of the people who express an interest in attending. Give them something concrete to do in preparation for these events. Treat them like Scouters! Keep them busy enough that they won't have time for side trips because they are expected to be doing something specific at your camp. Make that clear early on. You might get some people who don't mind and would be happy to help. You might get others who aren't interested in pitching in and won't camp with you under those circumstances. Problem solved in both directions.

 

But yeah, if you have free for alls three or four times a year, that does seem a bit excessive. That's probably a third to a half of your campouts, right?

[Gonzo1 10]

I agree with Lisa.

another way to minimize this problem is to reduce the number of these trip to maybe one (or two maximum) per year.

 

[gwd-scouter 11]

Agreeing with the previous posts in limiting that type of outing to one a year.

 

We never have parents want to join us on an outing, even when we make it clear that we NEED another adult. All of trips in the past have involved camping in tents until this past year.

 

In January the troop went skiing for the first time. Oh boy, parents and siblings came out for that one! Not a problem since it was a day trip. So, in essence it turned into a family trip rather than a Troop trip.

[local1400 10]

Chip I gotta back the ladies and Gonzo1 too. You have to set limits and rules. It may be met with some looks or comments that are not Scout-like, but you can't run a program that's amok with the whole fam damily!

[Nike 94]

Concur on all points. Our troop has one trip per year, the annual ski trip, that is open to all family members. However, if a non-registered parent wants to go on any other camp out, he/she is welcome, stays in the adult area, and heavily recruited as a volunteer and FoS. Non-registered children, and that includes Cubs, are not permitted on any trip other than the ski trip.

 

If you can't get the boys to choose different trips that might not be so appealing, maybe you can reserve a campsite that "only has" enough room for the Scouts and the adult leadership.

[Gonzo1 10]

After all of this, I admit I have brought the 6 year old little sister on a camp-o-ree. Only two adults going, the wife was out of town and if I didn't bring "Princess", no one would have gone. She stayed out of the way, and probably has more nights camping than half the troop anyway.

 

I checked with the scouts and the other adult first, no one minded. The scouts kinda liked having her around.

[local1400 10]

Oh Gonzo, oh the shame. Yes, I've seen it done with a troop where He/she were both leaders and need to take an extra little one too and that's fine. GWD, Lisabob, any other young'uns like that for you ladies in that same boat?

[Gonzo1 10]

Local,

So often I try to preach the way, then I bring Little Miss Princess, BUT, she's quiet, out of the way, a helper too. If she would just get up to speed on setting up the rain fly and master the taut line, but it just isn't gonna happen right now.

 

As a general rule, in our troop, if siblings have to tag along or lose the parent, we'd have the sibling come along, but the parent watches the kid, not scouts.

[ASM915 90]

Jaime,

A future Venturer in the making, eh?

[Beavah 205]

Now here I am about to do somethin' very uncharacteristic. I'm goin' to mention insurance and liability of all things!

 

I think in these cases, that's somethin' we all need to at least consider thoughtfully. As Leader of an outdoor activity, especially a technical outdoor activity like a whitewater or high adventure trip, we have some duty of care to the adults, the scouts, and all the other rug rats who come along. The BSA will of course back us up pretty well, but there are some differences for non-registered adults, and some bigger differences for non-registered youth.

 

First, remember that proper preparation is expected. For a whitewater trip, that means swim checks for everybody, and prior whitewater and paddling skill prep for everybody.

 

For siblings, BSA accident insurance might not apply, so checkin' on family medical insurance is a good idea, and makin' sure they know they're responsible for such things.

 

Supervision applies to adults as much as kids. Adults can do dumb things in whitewater or other technical environments. "Chain of command" must be clear. It's particularly important that non-registered adults not assume major supervision tasks, or at least we should be clear that their personal insurance is going to be "primary" if they do.

 

We all need to think about whether we want to be responsible for all the rug rats who come along. The SM bringing his own son/daughter like Gonzo did is pretty clear. But if I'm the leader of the trip, I'm also responsible for Gonzo and his daughter if they come. A SM may be willing to do that or not, but it should be a conscious decision with eyes wide open. The trip leader is responsible for everyone on the trip. And BSA liability coverage for an unregistered, ineligible youth participant is at least a slight gray area, though the BSA's reputation is very good for stickin' by our volunteers.

 

Personally, I'm all for the once-a-year family campout or museum trip. I'd be a lot more squeamish about a family-and-friends "high adventure" trip. Worth havin' a real, live in-person conversation with your council program director about.

 

Beavah

 

[scoutldr 732]

I'm not a lawyer...so I'm asking...is there a difference between a troop or council organized high adventure trip and a trip organized by a commericial outfitter such as "New River Adventures". In the commercial trip, I'm assuming that the outfitter assumes liability, since everyone has to follow THEIR rules, signs THEIR release forms, and uses their equipment?

 

I agree with the others...the OCCASIONAL younger kid (son or daughter of a leader) coming along is OK, as long as they are not disruptive. And don't forget that BSA rules (and insurance) allow for "visitors" who are eligible to join as a recruiting tool.

 

[gwd-scouter 11]

Local - my sons are 20 and 14. There were a few times back in my Cub Scouting days when younger son came along on a Pack campout before he was old enough to actually join as a Tiger. But, when older son got to the Troop, younger son never joined in on any outings. Since others have mentioned camporees - our District very strictly prohibits younger siblings attending, unless the camporee has been planned to include the Cub Scouts with their own camping area and activities.

[Lisabob 13]

As mine is an only child, that issue hasn't really come up. But if it did I hope my answer would be "no." As a leader I would rather say that I couldn't go than drag along a young child who shouldn't be there (or even, allow a young kid who wants to tag along, but really ought not to). And frankly, if none of the other parents are willing to step forward under the circumstances Gonzo describes, they need a kick in the rear. Maybe having the camp out canceled due to lack of adult leadership will provide that kick, from their kids who wanted to go.

 

Gonzo, I'm not faulting you and I'm sure "princess" is a great kid. I can understand the once in a blue moon type of response to such a scenario, although I think I'd have chosen differently myself. I just wonder what will happen the next time no other parent is willing to step up, because now they know you'll do it even if you have to take your daughter with you.

[eagle90 125]

We have several events we advertise as Family events - a Family Campout, summer minor league baseball game, winter ski trip. But all others are limited to scouts and leaders. We are fortunate in that we normally have enough leaders along on our trips, but we have told some dads who have asked to bring little sister along "No". You have to set the rules and follow them!

 

Dale