Parent Trouble

[firecrafter 10]

I'm here again to "ask the experts". I feel good about the level of experience and common sense I always find here, and am looking for some objective opinions. I will try to lay out as many details as I can.

 

At weekly meetings, we have a room where parents sit if they'd like to talk, so as not to disturb the scouts. At a recent meeting, one father came in to ask the Advancement Chair questions reguarding his son's advancement. The Advancement Chair answered, and another leader (a woman) offered additional information, as she was sitting right there. This was just casual chatter, nothing official. By all accounts the woman was very friendly and not at all out of line. This father immediately became very angry telling her to "shut up" and "keep her nose out of what was not her business". Witnesses were amazed at her composure and her response, "I'm sorry you took it that way, I was just trying to be helpful". The father raged on, going from 0 to 10 within seconds, yelling and finger pointing at the woman until she was literally shaking. Then he got up and left. The men in the room sat slack jawed.

 

I was not in the room but several very reliable men were present and all told the same story. The CC spoke with each individually. I saw the woman afterwards and she was indeed shaking. The woman has had no previous disagreements with this father. One man who was present remarked "That guy is nuts". He apologized to the woman for not sticking up for her-but he said he was so stunned, that he just froze.

 

In the past, this Father has also been very critical of our troop secretary, demanding that she give him an account of troop funds for the previous year. He has complained about, and to, our advancement chair and SM, for not being at every weekly meeting (These men are both very reliable and always make other arrangements when they cannot be there).

 

Recently, this same father was also accused of taking a new scout aside and scolding him for doing a poor job as patrol leader. Three scouts, the Guide, SPL, and ASPL were all within ear shot of the incident and reported it to the SM. The troop committee considered this accusation "hear-say". To me this was the most serious incident of all because it involved a scout.

 

This man is a single dad. I'm sure things are difficult for him. He is very quiet and only speaks to scouters when he has questions. He is not a registered leader and does not understand the BSA program. He is very difficult to communicate with. He is uninvolved and does not participate, except to sit in the back of the room each week. He and his son attend only the first hour of our meeting each week so they miss announcements, etc. "Lack of information" has been one of his constant complaints too. He seems very angry in general, and in his dealings with his son. The son transferred from another troop, in another district, so no one knows this father from our community. We can only go by what he has shared with us and what we have seen. The father told us his son was "kicked out" of his last troop for "making racial slurs", which Dad says never happened. Dad also offered that he himself had been in prison for breaking another man's arm during an altercation.

 

So you getting the idea? This guy seems like an odd fella. He seems to have a very short fuse. He makes some very uncomfortable and downright scares other folks. Personally, when he is around he makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck. His actions have been brought up several times in committee meetings since his son joined our troop last spring.

 

The woman he verbally attacked says she will not come back as long as he is there. She was/is obviously afraid of him. This woman has been a vital and active scouter for about ten years.

 

Is this enough to ask our charter to remove this man and his son (for how can you have the son without dealing with dad?) from the troop? Adult leaders seem to be feeling that this man could snap and they are not willing to take that chance. I think he will be very angry if told he cannot come back. I seriously fear some kind of outburst or retaliation from him. I am even wondering if we need to alert our local police to cruise the area during meetings over the next few weeks.

 

We have at least one committee member who is of the mindset that you NEVER ask a scout to leave your troop for any reason. I have no doubt that the charter will want this man to go when they are made aware of the situation. The woman was so scared that she will go to the CR herself if need be. Is everyone overreacting? You can see by the late hour that this weighs heavily on my mind.

 

Opinions please? Thank you all in advance.

 

-firecrafter-

[evmori 11]

Based on your post, I would have a meeting with dad and have the SM, CC & COR present. I would then tell dad his son is more than welcome at all Troop functions, but dad isn't. You might lose the boy, too, but one out of control parent can ruin an entire Troop.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[ustbeeowl 11]

I would also have a meeting with this dad as well as with the SM, ASM's, and the troop committee.

 

One thing bothers me, though.

Your comment:

>

seems to indicate that the committee does not have enough faith in the REAL leaders of the troop, the SPL and his staff, to take their word on the matter. After all, it is the SPL's troop, and if he sees a problem that he can't handle, he brings it to the SM, which he did. Your committee then dismiss's it as "hear-say".

 

Work with this dad, but also work with the committee to have them trust the boy leaders in the troop, so that when they see a problem, they won't be rejected. Would your committee believe an adult over the SPL?

 

Edited because a "cut and paste" didn't work.(This message has been edited by ustbeeowl)

[GernBlansten 10]

We had a similar parent who made people uncomfortable. He would quietly sit in the back of the committee meeting but when he had an issue with something, his response was way off the charts and confrontational usually involving raised voices and hurt feelings. I came to the opinion that he had serious mental problems. Luckily, he never confronted scouts, only committee members. He finally left our troop after getting upset at a COH when his son didn't receive enough accolades for his popcorn sales effort. Seems most of his angst was our troop being boy led and a bit disorganized at times. The ironic thing was he was a CM for one of our feeder packs. Needless to say, we didn't try very hard to retain him because of the hurt feelings, although we did tell him that he should seek another troop for his son and not drop out of scouting.

[SemperParatus 1]

Agree 100% with Ed.

 

[OneHour 11]

If it were in our troop, the first thing that I would have done is raising the YPT issue! The gentleman apparently has the tendency for violence! Youth Protection bell rings loudly in my ears ... not to mention PPT (parent protection as well!). I agree with Ed; however, I would have other standby just in case he erupts into a rage, which by the account, the tendency is there!

 

1Hour

[Aquila calva 10]

Eds advice IS correct. But also tell your Scout Executive about this man, and do it today. You may find out that the SE already knows.

 

Your CC, COR and SM need to act quickly and decisively. These three need to understand the situation and be in total agreement as to what to do and how to do it. These three need to deal with a situation that is immediately dangerous. This is one time when a committee meeting is not necessary. This is one time when the CC should pick up the phone and tell this guy he cannot ever show up at a meeting again.

 

You are dealing with a man with major anger management issues. The fact that he was in prison for breaking another persons arm is MAJOR! His recent behavior gives you ample evidence that he does not have control of his anger. Your troop is in jeopardy. This is no time for any kind of group therapy.

 

Be prepared to call 911 if this guy ever shows up around your troop again.

(This message has been edited by Aquila calva)(This message has been edited by Aquila calva)

[Lisabob 13]

It is scary that there are people like this "out there." I agree that a conversation is in order and I would definitely include your COR in that conversation (with a head's up so they understand where you are coming from). I also wouldn't want this person around "my" scouts. It will help if you can offer some ideas about how his son might get to and from events if Dad isn't welcome at your meetings. It may help (some) if you are also armed with examples of why you hope his son remains in scouting - tangible, positive things scouting has done for the boy. Make sure the boy knows too, that he is always welcome in the troop. But chances are good you'll lose both father and son, and while that's a real shame for this boy, it may just have to happen.

 

As for your long-time scouter who has said she won't come back until this guy is gone: while I understand why she might say that, I hope she'd reconsider. She's been involved with the unit for 10 years (!) and she obviously has a lot of value to contribute. Make sure she knows she's wanted and valued within the unit and that other adults are going to back her on this. That assumes, of course, that the other adults ARE willing to go to bat for her?

 

Finally, as a group you might find it useful to come up with an agreed-upon standard response to situations that get out of hand. It is very hard to know how to react on the spot because people are so shocked to begin with, and unfortunately, this probably won't be the only angry adult you ever have to deal with. Having a standard procedure may help leaders feel more secure in the knowledge that others will come to their aid if need be.

 

 

[firecrafter 10]

First thank you all for your replies. I appreciate each response very much.

 

The appropriate conversations have taken place with this man about his past actions. He does not see things as a "normal" person sees them. Both the CC and SM have given explanations about how, and why, we do things the way we do. He becomes angry, argues, and is unreasonable. I don't know how to put it except, he comes at each situation with some very odd notions.

 

Case in point: A scout was giving a skills instruction on winter camping last week. During his talk about the importance of headgear, he mentioned the need for a substantial hat. He said "you need a hat that comes down over your ears, you wouldn't want to wear a yamaka perched up top for keeping warm". The father called leaders over to report this racial slur. THEN insisted that the SM needed to line the scouts up and read them the riot act about each boy's personal offenses, "to build character". He said this was done in his son's old troop, apparently he thought it a great idea. It might interest you to know, I'm half Jewish and wasn't offended in the least by the scout's comment. I will be suprised if he does not "report" this to council.

 

Dad also thinks our charter should provide a storage closet for the troop. This was brought up with the charter several times in the past and they tell us do not have an extra closet. This Father gets angry, freaks out and rails against the charter. CMs calmly explain how fortunate we are to enjoy so many benefits and have such a great relationship with our charter. He argues and rants insisting the CC make the request again.

 

Same man, goes to council and "reports" our troop for not handling our finances properly. We have a very reliable long term treasurer, access to troop bank statements at every committee meeting, two signatures on every check...not to mention a hefty balance and all new equipment in our troop trailer. We keep great records and there has never been a question of any mishandling of funds. We have ONE fundraiser a year which is so much fun for everyone, it almost isn't work. We don't even REQUIRE participation. He or his son, of course, never participate.

 

Now, that stuff is just me venting...

 

I am very seriously concerned that this is the sort of fellow who shows up at a meeting with a gun. I don't want my boys there. I don't want the other boys there. I don't want to be there when he goes off. This man has verbally abused at least 4 adults in the last 3 months. No one should be asked to put up with that. Try getting ASMs to take this boy camping after Dad has screamed at their wives. Try telling them not to worry about what might come up in the future if they cross him in their dealings with his son.

 

Sounds great to say you let the boy stay. What happens when Dad preceives there is some kind of a problem with his boy? And that's not borrowing trouble. He has a new complaint EVERY week. I sincerely hope it won't be an issue. If Dad is asked to leave, I'm nearly certain he won't let the boy stay. I am not willing to sacrifice troop safety to keep ONE kid in scouts.

 

As far as the incident with his contact with the scout..the YPT issue WAS raised. I'm the one who raised it during committee meeting. I also stood up for the scouts who brought it to out attention. All are great boys, proven to be reliable, looking out for their fellow scout-a young inexperienced boy. (It might interest you to know the father's beef with this scout was that he did not make sure his son's patrol got enough sleep on a campout, as was "his responsibility".) See? Unreasonable. The boys were concerned that this angry man confronted a skinny 60 pound boy and scared the tar out of him. Committee members believed the scouts, but thought maybe this father didn't understand how to handle things and needed it to be explained to him, AGAIN. Their decision was a blanket statement to all parents about protocal. Not everyone was happy with that, myself included. I felt the incident needed to be brought to his personal attention as NO ONE else treats our scouts this way. Sorry gents, but no one messes with kids on my watch. Mine or the others.

 

We have a very mild mannered SM. He is fair and doesn't take garbage, but also is not one to shout and scream at the boys (or anyone). I've seen plenty of those guys and would not have my sons in a troop where that happens.

 

I spoke with SM and CH today. They are on this and will handle it by the days end. They are prepared to do as Aquila calva recommended and tell Dad he cannot return, EVER. The CO backs them. They are good men who are mainly concerned with the safety of our scouts and adult leaders. They also do not want to burden the charter with some unseemly incident. Personally, I hope they will ask a police officer to stand by this week at our meeting.

 

As for the woman. She will not come back unless he is gone. SM and CC are backing her. They say it's him or them.

 

So, say a prayer that all are safe and well.

 

Thanks again.

-firecrafter-

 

 

[Southpaw 28]

I feel that the police should be involved as it sounds like an assault incident. Now, I am not encouraging the filling of charges, rather I am suggesting that you discus the situation with your local law enforcement for advice and assistance.

[scoutldr 726]

I agree with SOuthpaw, this sounds like assault. Laying hands on someone (battery) is not required, I think verbal intimidation is sufficient. The lady who was the victim should consider getting a restraining order against this nut case. Then if she attends the meetings, he will not be able to come near. If he is a convicted felon, there might be additional implications for him as well. You might want to consult an attorney (who would probably talk to you pro bono), and explore your options. Having an off duty police officer or sherriff's deputy hang out at your meetings is also a good idea. Perhaps use him to knock off a merit badge requirement or two in the process.

 

I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV.

[ScoutNut 147]

One question I have not seen here. If this man is so unstable, and verbally abuses (and terrifies) adults and scouts alke, what about his own son? Has anyone seen any signs of abuse in his son? Has anyone looked?

 

You should consider checking out BSA's online YP training to see what your state's requirements are.

 

I would at the very least mention this to your council's SE.

[John-in-KC 311]

I (sadly) agree with others.

 

This *gentleman* is a risk. At the bare minimum, he's a risk to the good order and management of the unit, both the program side (Scouts, SM and ASMs) and the support side (Committee).

 

At this point, the COR, CC and IH need to sit down with the Council. Since the father is not a Scouter, there are different challenges. Whoever is the General Counsel for the Council may need to assist your Chartered Partner in writing a "you are no longer welcome on this property" letter.

 

BTW, unless he's a widower, he's not a single Dad. He may be a divorced dad with an unwilling former bride, but he's not a single Dad. I know, I am Dad to my Eagle, though we've been apart several years now.

 

The sad part is we will probably lose the Scout forever, and the situation sounds like he needs Scouting ... badly

[firecrafter 10]

"One question I have not seen here. If this man is so unstable, and verbally abuses (and terrifies) adults and scouts alke, what about his own son? Has anyone seen any signs of abuse in his son? Has anyone looked?

 

You should consider checking out BSA's online YP training to see what your state's requirements are."

 

First of all...IF? This has every adult leader in our troop rattled! No one questions that the man is unstable. And maybe that's not how you meant it, I know it's sometimes hard to tell meaning online. I know you aren't seeing things first hand, so it's difficult to understand just how intimidating this man is. But I assure you this is not something to be taken lightly. All of our leaders are YPT trained and would of course report any sign of abuse! There are several teachers among us, a couple of youth workers. They are mandated by law to report anything that looks like abuse.

 

This father seems only to abuse those outside his own circle, though I admit I have often wondered to myself what happened to the boy's mother. What Dad does at home I cannot say, and although he speaks harshly with his son there do not appear to be signs of abuse. They seem to be close, the boy actually seems to kind of give Dad the run around. The boy seems healthy, happy. He has regular medical check ups according to his troop health records (I know because I keep those records). Overall he seems to be pretty average for a kid his age. It's an odd situation to be sure, and Dad is certainly no "Danny Tanner". So what do we report? We think he's unstable? That would hardly make him angry, huh?

 

Fact is, we have a District Executive with a son in our troop, so he is aware. He also serves on our committee and it was he who led the shout of "hear-say" when the boys reported this man. His own son was a witness too! How messed up is that?! I have little faith in our district folks. They will tell us we must do everything to keep this boy in scouting-as is their job I suppose. But on a practical level what does that look like? The boy in question has NO ONE but his father, according to his records. We don't know where Mom is. The Father states that he is a single Dad. He gives a neighbor's phone number for emergencies.

 

One problem with his son, even an imagined one, and we have a volatile and irrational man to deal with. District folks will tell us to keep him in scouting, but won't be there when things get ugly or dangerous.

 

Phone calls have been coming in from parents saying this man has to go, or they will not be returning to our scout meetings. So we should lose those boys? Bottom line is...IH and COR do not want this family involved in the troop any longer. They are ready to approach local law enforcement, not hold meetings or talk about alternatives.

 

The CC is making the call to Dad tomorrow. The scout's records and a full refund of dues, as well as any awards he has not yet received will be mailed to him. I'm sure the Charter will follow up with a letter to both Dad & the council.

 

Thanks everyone,

-firecrafter-

 

 

 

 

[Lisabob 13]

Yikes, the more you tell us about this guy, the worse things sound. If other parents are telling you that they will not allow their children to continue with the troop unless this guy goes, if your SM and CC and other long-time adult leaders are saying it is him or them, then that's an obvious decision. When I wrote earlier that you should be sure to let the boy know he is always welcome I did mean that (and ideally, that would be the way to go) but I can see your concern about what might happen if "dad" here objects to something involving his child. Doesn't sound like a workable situation.

 

On one other note though: you've brought up this "single Dad" thing a few times now. IMO where Mom is is somewhat irrelevant to this situation from the troop perspective - she's just not there. And sharing details about why not may be a very difficult and private thing, particularly since this guy obviously doesn't view you as trusted friends (which I suppose is a good thing). I can certainly imagine a situation where a single Mom might prefer not to discuss the whereabouts and details of a child's absent father. Unless you are hinting at some kind of foul play (? I can't tell - maybe not) then let this go as a private matter.

 

Hang in there firecrafter, and here's hoping for the best possible outcome of a bad situation.