Getting Through

[CNYScouter 46]

 

Although this is for a Sea Scout/Venturing program this same situation could be with a Troops SPL so I placed it under Open Discussion - Program heading

 

The Ship has made progress since its start but I have hit another bump.

 

I am having trouble getting my Boatswain to understand what his responsibilities are and carrying these out.

Since day one he has expressed his desire to become a leader in the Ship.

 

Before holding Ship elections I discussed what was required for each officer position.

I really spend a good deal of time on what the responsibilities and commitment it required to be the Ships Boatswain.

Every ship member got a copy of these handed to them and another copy e-mailed to them.

 

In the beginning I ran everything.

But did let them know that as the Ship progressed the members would be expected to do more and more for each meeting.

 

Next I prepared the agenda but had the Ships officers follow it.

At one of the meetings as the Ship went through each part of the meeting I explained each part and at the end I handed out a generic meeting plan to use.

 

Meetings went pretty well like this then we hit the snag.

 

I sat down with the Boatswain and let him know he was responsible for the next meetings agenda.

After a meeting I worked with him to create the agenda for the next meeting and when he left all he needed to do was to copy it over into a useable format.

He didnt even have to worry about the activity as I was working with my son to do a presentation on Venturing/Sea Scout Advancement.

 

At that time I also let him know that he needed to send out a meeting notice a couple of days before and if he couldnt make the meeting he needed to get in contact with the 2nd in-command to let her know the agenda and what needs to be done.

I told him if he needed any help with this to call or e-mail and I would gladly work with him.

 

He never sent the meeting notice and showed up at the next meeting with nothing ready or even a written agenda.

I did contact him before hand reminding him that he needed to do these things and to contact me if he needed any help.

 

This has gone on for a couple of meeting like this.

I have worked out an agenda for the next meeting with him and he shows up with nothing. Even with reminders to send out a meeting notice and asking him how it was going and to contact me f he needed assistance I getting nothing.

 

I just got an e-mail from him saying he cant make our next meeting.

I did let him know, that as Boatswain, the meeting was still his responsibility even if he couldnt come.

He needed to contact the second in command and work with her on the agenda and to get a meeting notice out.

 

Even after this he still seems to be under the impression that if he cant make a meeting that he doesnt have to do anything (and its not like he did anything when he did show up).

 

I have yet to get a meeting notice and he still hasnt contacted the 2nd in-command to discuss the meeting and to make sure everyone is ready with what they need to do (one of the ship members is running the activity).

 

He has yet to go through Quarterdeck training.

I had to cancel this once already as every ship member except my son canceled at the last minute.

It is scheduled again for this weekend, but I am having doubts if he will show up even though I worked with him to select the date.

 

I am really not sure what to try next or if I have taken the wrong approach with this.

 

I do plan to sit down with him and discuss this again (when and if he ever shows up).

 

 

[jr56 92]

Sounds like it is time to sit down with him one on one, with another leader present of course for youth protection, and let him know that if he is not going to fulfill the responsibilities of his position, there will have to be another election to have somebody else take the position.

[scoutldr 732]

Unfortunately, I see this all too often. Young people today seem to have a hard time accepting responsibility, because they've never had to be responsible for anything before. Up until now, everything's been spoonfed to them, even in school. Unless there's some immediate reward for them, they can't see why they need to do something just because it's the right thing to do. The only thing you can do is get them into training, and fast. After that, it's up to them. They either perform, or step aside.

 

I hope I'm over-generalizing, but I don't think so.

 

(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[EagleInKY 14]

Ditto Scoutldr's thoughts. I'm having a tough time with our current SPL. If something doesn't get done, he shrugs and moves on. The boys in the troop have gotten frustrated with it, but no one else wants to step up to take responsibility. Therefore, even with the frustration, they re-elected him this time.

[t158sm 10]

Ditto for us too. The SPL has never had to make a decision in his life. Seems to think that things just happen on their own without having to work to make them happen.

Frustrating for everyone else.

[Eamonn 61]

I have some thoughts!!

Please don't take them as being unkind or think that I'm pointing fingers. I'm really not trying too!!

* As a Skipper or SM it's your job to train the youth leadership.

* We (The Adults) are there to serve the youth members -They are not there to serve us.

* It is going to be be hard in a new unit. You can't fall back on tradition or past learning. The "Monkey see, monkey do" thing isn't there just yet.

* Maybe till things get on firmer ground:

Have a fixed Agenda for the Quarterdeck Meetings.

Remember this program is new to all of the Scouts. If the Ship you serve is like the one I serve? The Scouts dig out their Sea Scout Manual ten minutes before the meeting and rarely look at them till ten minutes before the next meeting. But they are very busy people.

We found that having a theme for each month (3 meetings) worked well. At the QD Meeting each member takes on the Training Session for one meeting. I help out by providing information about where they will find the stuff they need. This past meeting our Store keeper did an outstanding job with Semaphore, he found a great resourse on the web. Our Boatswain's Mate brought his pair of hand held walkie-talkies and covered a lot of the requirements for Marine Radio. The idea of him bringing the radios from home came from me.

The Boatswain is making interactive boards for Compass and relative bearings. He has been working on T-shirts since last June!! (He wasn't Boatswain then.)

Accept the fact that things may not always go as you might like.

The Halloween Dance that was planned for last years Halloween turned out to be a Valentine's Day Dance.

We need to find a way of holding them accountable while we remain flexible.

Eamonn.

[Crew21_Adv 25]

CNY,

 

WOW!

 

Sounds like I'm having deja' vu'.

 

I have shared in your struggles. While working with the Troop and Crew, I've seen both sides of getting through. Unfortunately, I don't have any magic answers, but let me share my experiences.

 

In the Troop we hold semi annual elections. I have seen 16-17 y/o SPL's in our PLCs, need to be guided thru the meeting, while the scribe drew pictures of Japanese anime'. Only to see the SPL and the PL's come to the weekly meetings without their written plans and no idea of what the Troop meeting will be about. On the other side of the coin, still with little adult association, I've seen SPL's inform their PL's to bring skills and inter-patrol game equipment, and attend a weekly meeting with a fairly good meeting plan. Not 100 percent, but pretty darn good.

 

Equally in the Crew, we hold elections annually. I've had Crew Presidents, that was so passive and said okay to everything. A good young person, but no leadership skills, and could never write a plan or delegate a plan. Meanwhile, I've had another Crew President that does some delegation and brings somewhat of a plan (which match some of the program achievements in the Venturing handbook).

 

How the SPL or Crew President acts when they assume office, seems to be personality based. (even after training and adult association). I believe everyone here on the forum has heard, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

 

For my crew officers, I constantly remind them, it is their Crew. Within my crew, we have an agreement... I usually say to them "The more you plan, the less I plan. The more you speak, the less I speak" If they desire less adult association and to lead on their own, the have to take the leadership from me, which I am more than happy to give it up.

 

Does this work? Well sometimes.... It depends on their personality and if they are really challenged to take leadership, plan and communicate.

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[CNYScouter 46]

As usual on these forums I see some great advice and really good things to think about.

 

At tonights meeting one of the youth members is going to be doing knots.

I am going to do a session on teamed-based planning. (Eamonn- Im going to use your suggestion of making something like Apple Pie, but trying Brownies instead).

Its something I think the Ship really needs and I feel it can be covered in a reasonable time-frame.

The person who needs this most, the Boatswain, cant be there.

 

I know that it is my job to train the Ship members but is tough to train them when they arent there.

 

One of the other problems I am seeing is that the youth have no real idea what their schedules are like.

If Mom or Dad isnt there to tell them they have something going on they have no clue whats going on

Last month the Ship finally got together and decided on an activity to go on.

As meetings are held on Thursday nights they decided to go to a maze made from a 5 acre corn field the following Sunday afternoon.

All 6 Sea Scouts in attendance said that they were free and could go.

Only two showed.

At the next ship meeting the Boatswain said that he didnt come as this was the day his parents had scheduled two college visits.

He had no idea 9 days before that this was the day he was doing this (he even said so).

 

I seem to be repeating the mantra you will only get out of the Program what you out in.

 

When discussing the Quarterdeck training I keep getting asked Do I have to come?

 

I have being answering to this No, you dont have to come to anything the Ship does; you will only get out of the Program what you out in. You dont have to come to the training. However if you want the Ship to continue to grow and be successful its probably a good idea you show up.

 

I am not sure how well this is going to work but well see how many show up this weekend for the training.

 

[Eamonn 61]

Trying to get them there?

Make two lists.

On one list the things that don't seem to be working.

In my case: E-mails, Nagging!! Over doing the guilt-trip thing. Doing nothing.

On the other list things that do work or you haven't tried.

Some of our Scouts are gung-ho on advancement. Nearly all of our Scouts love to eat and cook. (Beware of them small red peppers they are hot and seven or eight of them hurt in chicken) They enjoy caving and all night bowling.

Try tying something they like to the other activity.

On the day of the QD -Training go all night bowling.

Some really clever person in the forums I think it was Hunt posted "More carrot and less stick"

We talk the talk about Scouting being fun, but we have to make sure that we are delivering the goods.

Try and set up a weekend with another well established, well ran Ship. Leave the Scouts from the two Ships alone to find out for themselves how things are done.

Some activities seem to go better when I don't participate in them. I act as driver and then hand them over to the people in charge.

That way they can't fall back on me but when they return they can't wait to retell me all about what they have done, what went wrong? And what went right. They really seem to appreciate the idea that I trust them enough to do stuff on their own without me!!

One thing that seems to work for me is when we have a long drive, I have the Boatswain download the maps and he sits in the passenger seat, we use the time to discuss things and I look for openings to offer him wise words of Eamonn.

Eamonn. (Save me a brownie!!)

[CNYScouter 46]

I have been trying to find what interests the members but so far it seems to be nothing.

When I receive info about an upcoming event I bring it in for the Ship to discuss.

 

A month ago I received information for an orienteering event.

I though it would be a great way to introduce navigation to the Ship.

Both my son and daughter have gone to this in the past and had a great time.

 

When I introduced it to them it was actually something that they all agreed it looked like a fun event to attend and wanted to do.

Every thing seemed fine until the time came to pay the registration fee and then no one signed up to attend except my son.

 

I have been looking for a Ship to visit but so far all the other Ships close by have been nothing but paper ships.

 

I have been selling the Winter Training Weekend not only as a place to work on Advancement but as a place to see how other Ships are run to give us ideas on what to do.

It really thought this is a very reasonable costing trip and on a weekend when not much else would be happening.

Again the ship members thought this was a great idea until the time to send in the fee then only my son signed up.

The only reason we have another Sea Scout going is her mother called me up at the last minute and said to sign her up.

 

I am not really sure what to do about this.

This seems to be a recurring theme.

Even the one event we did do only 2 kids showed up.

 

On the way home usually I ask my son his thoughts on the meeting.

He thinks the activities are usually fun.

His negative comments usually stem around the lack of participation from other ship members.

 

I am working hard to recruit more members but I just found out there has been a Snafu in our Winter meeting place and have been spending my time trying to secure a place to meet.

 

 

[acco40 95]

He never sent the meeting notice and showed up at the next meeting with nothing ready or even a written agenda.

 

CNYScout - when the Boatswain didn't follow through with his commitment, what happend at the meeting?

[CNYScouter 46]

when the Boatswain didn't follow through with his commitment, what happened at the meeting?

 

It has been 4 meetings since elections. We are a new unit less than 6 months old.

My son is the only one that has been in Scouts, but I did find out that all but one of the girls has or had a brother in Scouts. So not much in the way of youth-led experience.

 

At the meeting at where the officers were elected, the election were held right after opening and Boatswain just followed the agenda I prepared.

Met after meeting and worked with him and elected officers to prepare the agenda for the next meeting. Let him know that he needed to send a meeting reminder out a few days before next meeting.

I planned and ran the activity.

Let me know that he did read his e-mails and checked them a couple of times a day so that was they way to contact him.

E-mailed him during and asked him how was it going, gave him info on a new event that I found out about, letting him know I was available if he needed help. No response. I ended up sending out meeting reminder the night before when he didnt.

 

Showed up next meet with no agenda (basically just showed up).

Said he made an agenda but forgot it.

Gave him my rough agenda to work from.

Again after meeting sat down and prepared agenda. Talked about what it means being the Boatswain and his responsibilites.

I came up with the activity which was to work with my son to prepare a presentation on Sea Scout/Venturing (something that the other Ship members were asking for).

E-mailed twice him during the two weeks in-between. Same response. Again no meeting reminder. I again sent out meeting reminder at the last minute.

 

Again showed up with no agenda.

Again said he forgot it.

Winged the meeting using a copy of the sample outline agenda and notes from last meeting he got from Yeoman.

Sat down to work on agenda. After 5 min. announced he had to leave.

Before leaving I did left him know that making out the agenda and notifying the ship members about the next meeting was part of being Boatswain.

Two part activity I did a session on team-based planning/Ship member was to do Knots.

E-mailed rough agenda for him to follow as he didnt bother to write anything down.

 

Got e-mail that he couldnt come to next meeting (thats when I started this thread).

Responded to him that the agenda was still his responsibility even if he couldnt come and he needed to let the 2nd in command know that he couldnt come and to work with them on the agenda.

I contacted 2nd in command. Boatswain had e-mailed that he couldnt come but nothing else.

I sent same outline to 2nd in command.

 

Not everything is dark and gloomy there has been some bright spots.

At last nights meeting 2nd in command started to stumble through agenda.

Yeoman ended up taking over and did a good job.

I had suggested that she run for Boatswain but she wasnt interested.

He brother, an Eagle Scout, is at the Naval Academy. I think she has her sights on attending there also. She is the ships best sailor.

 

She went over the required knots for Apprentice.

She came prepared and did a really good job.

She went as far as learning how to tie a monkeys-fist (I dont that one).

I still find it hard to believe that teenagers really get into learning how to tie knots.

When we were with the Troop the Scouts didnt seem interested in learning them

During her presentation I looked at the Adults in the back of the room.

Our 2 Mates, 2 Moms and the Yeomans Dad were in the back watching and learning how to tie the knots also.

 

I just dont know if it is time to replace the Boatswain yet.

He is new at this and is a very intelligent kid.

He is a senior at a very competitive private high school, very difficult to get into.

Most of the kids that I know that go to this school are the over achiever types and he really shouldnt have any difficulty doing this.

I am not sure what is going on but he surely isn't putting any effort in even though since we started he has expressed interest in being a leader in the Ship.

 

And sorry Eamonn the Ship ate all the Brownies.

[Mike F 10]

2 quick thoughts:

 

1. You're a very young unit with almost no youth with leadership experience. When they've never seen it modeled, it's hard for them to grasp. It sounds like the expectations might be too high for this leader in this situation at this time. I've found when scouts get pushed into unfamiliar territory (expectations), they can often respond with more inaction (paralysis) than wrong action (mistakes). When the fear of making a mistake gets overwhelming, they stop cold and give you blank looks. If this might be the case, I recommend taking back more of the planning and concentrate more on getting your youth leader really comfortable at leading the plan you have helped plan. As his confidence and skills grow, gently push his comfort zone, but do it in smaller, more gradual, increments.

 

2. Even if you have to keep running more than you should during his entire term of office, youll be working on a long-term plan to help the entire group transition to a more scout-led program. As the junior scouts see the leadership modeled above them, theyll be that much further along when they are the leaders in a year or so. It takes time for a culture change like this to become self-sufficient. (CAUTION: Its easier in the short-term to just do everything yourself. Never forget youre trying to build their confidence, skills, and overall self-reliance.)

 

[gwd-scouter 11]

I had these same struggles a couple of years ago. While we were not a new troop, we were never a boy-led troop.

 

We held elections and new SPL was a Life Scout, 17 years old, that had never seen much less done a POR where the Scout actually had to do something. His term lasted about 9 months and while he did show up regularly for meetings and outings, I had to spoon feed the agendas to him. I also had to do a major part of the instruction at meetings and on campouts.

 

Next SPL was elected. Again, a Life Scout with no real leadership experience. He tried harder. I think he had more natural leadership ability and made more effort to take charge of the troop's plans. Still, I tried to hold leadership training - no one could come. Tried to get them to hold regular PLCs - no one could come. Even without that, the difference in this SPL and the former was that I didn't have to spoon-feed him as much as coach him. So, progress was being made.

 

I struggled many times with feelings of remorse for taking the SM job. Felt like I just couldn't pull it off and was swimming upstream trying to turn this troop around from adult-led to boy-led.

 

Enter this year. Another new SPL. This time, a 15-year-old who for the past year and a half had been watching and listening as I reminded previous youth leaders about their jobs and, as I said, spoon fed the program to them. About a week after he was elected, he came to me and said he joined the golf team at school and practices were on Mondays so he would probably miss a lot of meetings. I asked him if he thought that was a good thing for the SPL and suggested maybe he should step down from the job. He looked completely stricken. But, we talked a bit and he asked if it would be OK for his ASPL to start the meetings and then he could come, but just be about a half-hour late. I was thrilled that he worked this out on his own. In the past, our Scouts would simply skip meetings altogether when doing sports even if they could arrive a bit late and make most of the meeting. Others began to follow his example. Now, even our busiest older scouts are making real efforts to attend meetings.

 

During this time, I began to see the older scouts working with younger scouts. They even planned a few campouts with real agendas and activities.

 

He served in the position for six months and changes were happening. We held elections again at the end of summer. I figured this guy would not run again as he had fulfilled his POR, but he thought my son should not run unoppossed for SPL so he ran again - and won by one vote. Sure, my son was a little upset, but is happy in his position as Troop Guide. In fact, SPL talked to him after the elections and said he thought my son would be an excellent Troop Guide since he works so well with the younger Scouts. My son was beaming from the praise he received from an older Scout - much more than if I had said anything.

 

Now, SPL has held several PLCs and everyone showed up! They decided to have them on the Monday following a campout rather than a regular Troop meeting. It is working out very well.

 

They are using the program helps and themes to plan their meetings, designing them around whatever the upcoming campout is. I don't know if there is such a thing in Venturing or Sea Scouts, so this may not be relevant to your situation.

 

I recently posted a thread on how proud I was of the Scouts and last week's troop meeting. Entirely planned by the Scouts. Entirely run by the Scouts. Sure, there were mistakes, and they talked about them briefly at the end of the meeting. Then, the PLC spent a few minutes going over next week's agenda and making sure everyone knew what he was responsible for.

 

It took two years, it took many phone calls, it took nagging, it took patience, it took a lot of repetition about it being their troop, (it took a few adult beverages for me after meetings), but we are finally at the thresshold of the boy-led troop.

 

Patience and perseverance CNY. It takes time, but it can happen!

[CNYScouter 46]

I do tend to set high expectations and perhaps more patience is due on my part.

 

When this young man joined he immediately expressed interest in becoming a leader in the ship.

He repeated this to me many times over the summer before having elections.

Now after being elected Boatswain he doesnt seem to want to put any type of effort in.

 

I sat down with him less than a month ago and we discussed how important Quarterdeck training was for him to attend and that I wanted to set a date that he could make.

He e-mailed be a few days later with tomorrows date.

 

I just received an e-mail from him notifying me that he can not attend Training tomorrow.

He has to work at his schools open house tomorrow at the same time.

 

I guess that I should be glad that he did tell me but waiting less than 24 hours before hand to let me know I find disrespectful on his part.

I just find it hard to believe he didnt know had this scheduled before this.

I really wished he had come to me when he realized the conflict and we could have worked on a new date.

 

The non-effort on his part after telling me how he really wanted to learn leadership has become really frustrating.

 

I am expecting at least 3 ship members at our Quarterdeck training tomorrow and I do have some fun things planned.