too busy at camp to advance?

[Lisabob 13]

I'm curious to hear what you all think about this. The troop my son is in has developed a reputation for slow advancement through first class. Part of this is the dominant philosophy among most of the experienced ASMs, that 1st Cl/1st yr. is too much, too fast (or too little, too fast, as they claim, perhaps rightly, that it leads to a shallow knowledge base).

 

But part of it seems to be the way campouts work. Time and again my son and other boys who are in their first or second year have gone on campouts expecting, hoping, and planning to work on advancement requirements like fire building, knife/axe handling, 1st aid skills, open fire cooking, etc., only to say upon return that there really wasn't time to do any of the above because they were too busy with program and/or with cooking and cleaning up, and other camp chores. As for the open fire cooking (2nd cl. requirement), there is seldom opportunity to do this and the younger boys don't have much voice in the kind of cooking they are allowed to do (nearly always using small stoves)

 

I'm all for keeping busy and the boys are (mostly) enjoying the campouts and developing intangible skills like how to get along with groups of people, how to work as part of a team, etc.. So I'm not necessarily criticizing. But I wonder how other troops manage to find a balance between having an active program at campouts and having time for boys to seek out older scouts or adults to work on specific advancement requirements on campouts? Do you explicitly schedule free time into your weekend program? Do you implicitly leave time and hope it works out? Do you, too, find yourselves too busy to do any "extra" stuff at campouts?

 

 

Lisa'bob

 

 

[Double Eagle 128]

Some tips. Get an ASM, troop guide, OA Rep, or a new scout mentor to work with the PLC to offer advancement opportunities to 1st Class in the 1st year. The skills in that year to make 1st Class will prepare them for the tougher trail to eagle. Not all 1st year scouts will take it, better to offer it than have a scout say I wish we did that stuff. Don't wait for summer camp or 1st class weekend to get it going. Empower those 1st class and senior to help others as they were helped along the trail. We lose too many to boring campouts and stifling of enthusiasm. I made 1st Class out of fun and adventure and thougt the rank as secondary until I realized you could be daniel boone and earn a badge too. The skills were important, not the advancement. Maybe I was reading too many mountain man novels as a kid..

[Eamonn 61]

We kinda had the same problem.

We had Patrols that were mixed age groups.

Very often the needs of the younger Lads seemed to get a little lost.

As luck would have it our District held an annual Camp Craft Competition.

The competition covered all the skills needed to complete First Class.

Over the years the rules became a little complicated. But basically the Scouts were inspected when they arrived -How they packed their gear.

All food was fresh and cooked over open fires.

Their site was inspected -How it was set up, how the tents were erected and placed. How they worked as a team.

The judges could pick a scout any Scout to cover one of six skills.

There was also a surprise event.

The winning patrol received the Camp Craft Trophy , which they kept for a year. It was a Felling Axe with a chromed head and their patrol emblem was carved into the shaft.

This was the Trophy everyone wanted to win.

As a Troop we held practice competitions, with the winning Patrol earning the right to wear a special neckerchief.

This really seemed to give the Patrol Leaders and older Scouts the incentive to work with the younger Lads.

Eamonn.

[Crew21_Adv 25]

Lisa, (et al)

 

Greetings! I'd like to present two sides if I may...

 

Our troop attends Summer camp, as well as three camporees per year. These three months are pretty time consuming so we don't plan in advancement during these occasions.

 

On the remaining eight months, that leaves about eight weekend of Troop camping experiences remaining. Our Troop plans specific advancement opportunities around these campouts and during regular meetings. But it is difficult to "go back and redo" an event for one single Scout, after the Troop and patrols just went thru the advancement evolution "last week".

 

The leadership of the Troop does try. However, It is disappointing when;

- 45 Scouts sign up for the weekend, but only 30 Scouts show up at the parking lot.

- We conduct our preliminary physical fitness assessment, but after 30 days, four meetings and friendly reminders go out. None of those that needed the 30 day assessment show up for that meeting.

- Scouts don't bring their handbooks to the meeting or campouts to get an advancement item signed off.

- Their menu planning, while supervised by the ASM's; ends up on Saturday being changed to Vienna sausages and pop tarts.

- The Troop hasn't seen a young Scout in a couple of months (granted there are sports and homework, but sometimes just laziness included) and the Scout and Parent expects automatic advancement.

 

 

Now after a few disappointments, there are equally a few shining moments of light... The ASM's and SM do back flips when;

- a first year Scout show up in full uniform. (and patches in the correct place, with out staples or babypins)

- the Scout has been reviewing the Scout Oath and Law, and knows what they stand for.

- The Scout has opened his handbook more than once a week.

- Finally, both the Patrol Leader and the Scout communicates, and knows what the calendar is, where to be, what to bring, what to read and what to practice.

 

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

 

[SR540Beaver 116]

Lisa,

 

I am the ASM for new scouts in our troop. I have two other ASM's assisting me. I'm new at this position and am learning as I go. Here is what the SM and we three ASm's for the new scouts have worked out. We have 20 new scouts divided into 2 new scout patrols. Each patrol has 2 Troop Guides that will serve a 9 month term. While the whole troop of 60 goes on the same campouts and share "program", we also coordinate a new scout "program" into those campouts. A couple of months ago, we did a pioneering campout. The new scouts got to participate by learning some lashings and fiddle with making a camp gadget while the older boys built larger and more involved structures. But the main thrust of their program on the campout was the Troop Guides setting up an axe yard and the new scouts earning their Totin' Chit. Because the skills the new scouts need to learn are different from the skills the older scouts need, we split the new scouts out into their own skill session during troop meetings. We meet on Mondays. The Monday following a campout we instead have a "Leadership" meeting. It is an indepth PLC meeting to discuss the coming month. The SM wants the new scout ASM's and Troop Guides to start having their own seperate meeting to plan for the new scout patrols. Our plans will be incorporated in with the whole troop plan. We also have a mini-PLC 30 minutes before each troop meeting. The Troop Guides take part in these and that is where the cooridination of the two programs comes together. We highly encourage our new scouts to attend summer camp and we utilize the 1st Year program at camp. I will tag along and monitor the class to make sure the teaching meets our standards and that the boys actually learn what the course counselor says they did. Tonight, we are having a special troop meeting at a park close to our CO. We have new dining flys that some of the patrols have done a really sorry job of setting up properly. The older boys will be competing against each other to set the flys up correctly. At the same time, the new scout patrols will be doing their physical fitness requirenments for Tenderfoot. Afterwards, the whole troop will be having dutch oven cobbler. We all meet together and share common elements of meetings and activities, but we have seperate activities based on where they are in their scouting career. We will keep them in the new boy patrols for about 9 months before integrating them into existing patrols. Most won't be 1st Class yet, but will be well on their way.

 

I kind of random thought my way thru the post. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask.

[Beavah 205]

I think your troop is probably doin' things the way B-P and Hillcourt intended, eh? The boys are going out and playin' the game, and learning as they go. They are not being "driven" by advancement as and adult imposed excercize, unless da parents are tryin' to impose on their own kids. Nothin' can be done about that.

 

Scouting is a pick-up-game, not an organized sport. Relax. Most would be delighted to have their son say that his life in the troop is "busy with program" all the time.

 

And dependin' on where you live, open fire stuff may not be very common any more. With more than half the U.S. in drought conditions, responsible troops are doin' what they need to do to be good citizens, and with LNT, many troops are movin' away from cuttin' and burnin'. You should be proud that your son's troop is ahead of the game in responsible campin'.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

While advancement is not the goal of boy scouting, it is one of the methods and while some don't regard the goal of First Class First year as realistic, its not entirely unscoutlike to afford boys the opportunity to advance as well.

 

Way back in the spider webbed recess of my memory I seem to remember that a Patrol Leaders duties included representing the group (in this case the patrol) and he was to have a handle on what his patrol members needed for advancement and push to have these items on either a meeting or outing agenda.

 

Then again, Lisabob, there is nothing against having a patrol outing which has as its express purpose fulfilling advancement items. The patrol needs to follow the requirements of a patrol outing of course.

[EagleInKY 14]

We have this issue sometimes as well. Most campouts have a theme and rarely do they tie directly to advancement. For example, this weekend we went canoeing. Most of the time was spent in preparation of the canoe trip and then resting/recovering afterward. But, there was a little bit of "down-time" where the guys could do things. A few new scouts took the time to work with an older scout to earn their toten chip. A few 2nd Class scouts took the time in the evening to find their way without a compass using the North Star. None of these were organized or set up by adults. While we may have dropped a few non-so-subtle hints ("wow, can you see how clear the sky is tonight, I bet you can really see the stars..."), we let the boys take the initiative.

 

As for FC/FY, a hotly discussed subject here, I find that only the most dedicated, involved and energetic boys can accomplish this. Most take closer to 18 months. Our goal is to provide a program that allows for those with the desire to reach that goal, while not becoming an advancement factory that stamps out First Class clones every 12 months.

[fling1 10]

Hi Lisabob,

OGE pretty much covered the points that I would make, specifically that the Patrol should be setting its own agenda to some extent. You don't specify whether these T-2-1 boys are grouped in a patrol(s) or are distrubuted among mixed-age patrols. If they are grouped, then their Patrol Leader should certainly be making their desires known to the PLC. And should the PLC fail to accomodate them, they should definitely be pursuing their own interests in patrol meetings and outings.

You said that the "kind of cooking they are allowed to do" is limited to small stoves, so perhaps that means they are mixed patrols? Otherwise I would expect that what and how a patrol cooks is up to them, within the boundaries of fire bans and LNT wilderness camping. In this case, the younger scouts need to let their patrol leaders know their goals and plans so the patrol can support them in their efforts.

Our outings are rarely so action-packed that a patrol can't pursue some T-2-1 requirements if they are so inclined. If a young patrol came to me to cover fire or totin' or even cooking skills with them because they couldn't get any time out of the older scouts (guide, instructor, etc.), then I would soon be having a chat with those older scouts.

[SR540Beaver 116]

I don't know, I fail to see how or why 1st Class/1st Year is hard to accomplish in an active program. Tenderfoot thru 1st Class advancement happens naturally on almost every campout. Look at just a few of the requirements.

 

-Present yourself to your leader, properly dressed, before going on an overnight camping trip. Show the camping gear you will use. Show the right wa to pack it and carry it.

 

-Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop campout. Sleep in a tent you helped pitch.

 

-On the campout, assist in preparing and cooking one of your patrol's meals.

 

-Using a compass and a map together, take a 5 mile hike (or 10 miles by bike) approved by your adult leader and your parent or guardian.

 

-Explain the rules of safe hiking.

 

-Identify local poisonous plants.

 

-Identify or show evidence of at least ten kinds of wild animals found in your community.

 

-Identify or show evidence of at least ten kinds of native plants found in your community.

 

-Since joining, have participated in five separate troop/patrol activities, two of which included camping overnight.

 

-Participate in an approved (minumum of one hour) service project.

 

-Using a compass, complete an orienting course that covers at least one mile and requires measuring the height and/or width of designated items.

 

-Etc., etc., etc.

 

If you don't do a lot of these items on your average campout, just WHAT the heck are you doing on them? The new scouts can participate in a program designed for their skill and rank level while older boys are doing the same and still be part of the troop on the same outing. No rule says everyone has to do the same thing.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I agree with SR540; there's a lot of T-2-1 stuff that should just be happenin' on outings as a regular part of the game. But there's a bit of a difference between what the troop/patrol is doing, and what a boy may be doing. The troop may be teaching safe hiking, but some boys may be usin' their time to daydream and play with the wood toads. Dat leaves "no time" for advancement, eh? But it's still good scouting, and OK by most of us.

 

I generally find that it's the first aid stuff that takes the longest for most boys to complete well; particularly 2nd class first aid. It's (hopefully!) not practiced "live" too much, but it's as new to boys as backpackin' or winter campin', and takes even longer to learn well.

[MaScout 10]

Many years ago, our experienced Scout patrol felt the new Scout patrol wasn't advancing quickly enough, and decided to plan a "rank advancement" campout for them. This has snowballed. Now they (the original experienced Scouts are gone) were offended this last year when I asked them if they really wanted to have this as one of their troop outings. Of course they did! This was their opportunity to share the skills they had developed over the years. They divvy up the areas depending on their strengths & teach skills. We start Friday evening and go until Sunday evening. We camp locally, so we don't spend time driving. The older Scouts do virtually ALL the teaching. Adults are on hand in a supervisory capacity. We hike. We work on fire starting, first aid, and knot tying. We learn compass skills & hike a mile with a compass. We find signs of native animals & native plants. On & on. However: This IS a choice the SCOUTS make. Is this something the older boys in your troop might be interested in starting?

 

Also, as has been mentioned before, if a Scout misses the outing, we can't duplicate all this at the very next meeting or outing. Also, for some of the skills we cover, just because they duplicated them ONCE doesn't mean they learned them...

 

During the Patrol Leader's Conferences, the annual plan is made, then the monthly plans are made. It is ultimately the BOYS who should be determining the game plan for the outings. Conversely to the above example, our boys often do not plan ANY advancement into the weekend. This last weekend for example, they went fishing. One boy came to me and asked to complete his Totin' Chip which he had done most of. We did this. That is the ONLY advancement done the entire weekend! A couple boys worked on their fishing MB, but as far as T-2-1, that was it. But they had fun.

 

We find that if we attend a number of District events, we don't have time to work on our own ideas, because program gets in the way. Initially, we had a hard time not supporting EVERY District event, but finally got over that. Now, if we plan our own events, the program is what we want it to be. We don't plan on working on advancement if we are at a District event at all.

[dan 10]

Lisabob

My sons troop only cooks over open fire, the hardest requirement for the new scouts to get is light a lightweight stove, I found it somewhat funny that the 2 troops have the same problem but only different.

 

It is possible to follow LNT cooking over open fire.

 

 

[resqman 108]

My boy is a Webelos II and we are shopping troops. Just so happened that a local troop was holding their annual New Scout Outing campout this month. One of the leaders is a personal friend and his youngest just crossed over from Cubs to Boy Scouts this spring. I asked if we could "try before we buy" by attending this campout as a guest.

 

This troop holds an annual New Scout Outing in late Spring. It is a flop and drop style campout. The goal for the weekend is to present the opportunity for all the New Scouts to complete as many of the outdoor requirements up through 1st class. Friday evening they selected campsites, setup dining fly, chuck box, and table. They erected tents, built a campfire and retired some flags. Sat morning they prepared and cleaned up their own meals. The morning offered an axe yard and knife area with older scouts instructing for Whittln chip and Totn chip. Another older scout held a fire building session. Some more older boys had a lashing area with pre-cut poles and lots of binders twine. Another scout offered First Aid. In the afternoon, another older boy offered a 5 point, 1 mile orientation course. Two adults offered to identify 10 plants and recommended New Scouts open their eyes to animal activity. Additionally, determining height as well as general direction via watch and sun were offered by adults. Sat lunch was no cook sandwhich stuff prepared by the NS. Evening meal was required to be cooked and the troop had suggested 3 menu plans at previous troop meetings that provided a balanced meal and a cooked dessert. Dutch Ovens were provided for the 4 cobblers and two cakes that were made by the NS.

 

Sun morning, following a no cook breakfast, a flag raising ceremony was held. The NS were offered a 5 mile hike with an opportunity to use a compass to identify headings, animal signs were encouraged to be discovered and during breaks, plants were queried. The most older scouts stayed behind to breakdown and pack common gear. Upon return the New Scouts had to pack personal gear, complete break down of patrol areas and move all equipment to the trailer for packing

 

At the closing remarks after packing up, the Scout master declared there were no more New Scouts in the troop, all were considered equal from that point forward.

 

On the drive home, I asked the 3 older scouts in my vehicle what they normally do on campouts. They explained they have themes for most campouts that keep them busy. Based on the responses from the adults this past weekend, the adults would be willing to review and sign off tasks for individual scouts at other campouts.

 

My Webelos II son asked if we could practice lashing in the backyard on the drive home. Tomorrows task is to pickup a spool of binders twine for the house.

[Lisabob 13]

Resqman, sounds like a pretty solid troop. I give credit to our troop, they're slowly coming around and for next year they have a "shakedown" campout planned for shortly after cross-over so they can get the new scouts oriented and on their way. I think I'll print out your post and show it to our SM as a way to (hopefully) get him started thinking about what to do at that campout. Maybe he'll share it with the PLC.

 

Until about 15 months ago this was a troop with almost no young/new scouts. At the time my son's group crossed over there were only a couple of scouts at 1st and 2nd cl. ranks and all had been with the troop at least two years. Since then things have changed and now about half of the scouts are either finishing their first year or have just joined this spring. So it is an adjustment for both the established adult leaders and the older boys.

 

It isn't so much that I'm worried about slow advancement in its own right, as a couple of people seem to have suggested. It is more that, at least until you get to 1st cl. you are lacking in basic skills that you may need to enjoy yourself while camping. Also that I think it is tough on boys who want to advance and are prepared and have planned to do the work to be constantly put off (by adults and older scouts alike) because there's never enough time at campouts to do it. And right now the crunch is on because summer camp is coming and boys who aren't close to 1st Cl. are expected to sign up for the camp's first year program. This includes most of our 2nd year boys (they didn't have a 1st yr. program at camp last summer) who, however, do not want to be lumped in with the new scouts at camp all week, and want to work on the "cool" mbs that the camp offers instead.

 

And then also it is causing tension among the adult leaders. Since most of the "established" leaders have older boys (14+, several whose boys have aged out) they naturally have a different take on things than those with boys who are 10 or 11. Example, a couple of adults with younger boys have offered to do a one-day deal with some boys who want to work on basic skills like compass work/hike, fire building, etc.. But this is perceived as being adult led (and maybe it is?) and the advice of these established ASMs with older boys is to "let the boys figure it out" on their own. Which seems to mean...never, because there's never time on campouts to do any of this stuff and patrols in this troop simply do not do independent activities.

 

As for cooking, the patrols are mixed age (this is new) except for the NSPs, which are still led by an appointed, older PL (yes I know, that's not quite how it should work but that IS the way it is). The older boys end up making the decisions and the younger boys either go along or are ignored - though for the most part, they are not quite as vocal as they might be, but that's part of the dynamic. The ones who are quite vocal tend to be viewed as "problem" boys by the group, adults included. And for some reason, nobody uses dutch ovens and they always use stoves and the older boys end up doing the cooking 9 out of 10 times, even when it isn't planned that way. Maybe again, they're just too busy to wait for something to cook over an open fire?

 

I'm at a bit of a loss for how to make constructive contributions to this situation. Discussion on this topic in ASM/Committee meetings tends to get pretty defensive and there's a groupthink element to it. And of course the ASMs who have been around a long time are also really skilled outdoorsmen with a lot to offer, who have put countless hours into the troop. They're the experts and it is hard to challenge that when they don't see much of a need for change.

 

Lisa'bob