Charted Org Involvement / Issues

[VinceC 10]

 

I took over as cubmaster of my son's pack this year. We've made some great progress in turning our pack around; more parental involvement, increased membership, more activities. One area where I feel I've hit a wall is with our CO. They really seem to have no interest in us at all, and not from a lack of our pack trying. We've offered service projects, asked to have Scout Sunday, invited church membership to our meetings and activites, (asked to have them posted in church calendar but they didn't). What we receive from the chuch is a place to hold most, but not all of our pack meetings. Our COR is merely a name on paper.

What really got under my skin this week and prompts me to write this post is this. A local business have been VERY supportive of our pack the last few years. They have recently begun a program for community grants, and are offering us $1,000.00. What pack couldn't need that assistance? All our our papers are in order but one. A 501©(3) that states the church in charitable and nonprofit. The church refuses to provide it, and I recently found out that they have refusewd to in the past from an old pack member. They state we should have our own. Local BSA council says we should be using that of the church, as per the charter agreement. When I asked for the church presidents name so that I might speak with him directly(he made this decision), I was not given it and was told that the matter had been turned over to their legal council for review, and would not discuss it any further until they located their orginal charter papers they signed years back.

I'm very frustrated with the situation. Is it time for a new CO? There is another local church that may be interested. Over half our boys belong to this other church that is a possiblity.

[oldsm 10]

I don't envy your situation with the CO. Congratulations, though, on stepping up to the CM position and your success in turning around the program.

 

Your situation could be sticky. I'm guessing that there has been a relatively poor relationship for some time between the Pack and the church. It might be worthwhile to put some time and effort into repairing the situation. Regular communication on a personal level usually works much better than an "official" request on a formal level. Oh, sure, you might have to do that, but finding sympathetic people in the church (not always the ones in positions of authority) might give you a "back door" into the official ones.

 

You might try helping the church see the CS program as being a part of their outreach to young people and their families. Be persistent. Don't give up, even when it becomes discouraging.

 

Do you do any external publicity, such as newspaper articles about Pack events? If so, do they acknowledge that the church is you CO?

 

Perhaps you need to engage the services of a Pack parent who is also a member in good standing of the church.

 

Now...if these efforts don't work, maybe the church really doesn't believe in/understand/want the CS program in their church. Your best bet, then, would be to approach the other church about assuming the CO responsibilties. However, before making the jump, I'd have extensive conversations with the powers that be in the new church about all the details, both big and small.

 

Good luck to you. Keep the faith, and keep up the good work.

[ScoutNut 147]

I would contact your Unit Commissioner & your DE. They should be able to help you talk to the church & help them see what is involved in being a CO for a BSA unit.

 

You said that over half of the Pack belongs to the other church, are the rest members of the CO? Do you have anyone in the Pack at all who is active in your CO? If you do, perhaps they could help communicate with the CO. It sounds like you need a new COR. Someone involved in both the church AND the Pack would be ideal.

 

[Lisabob 13]

Agreeing with Scoutnut - contact your DE. In the case of many churches, there is a national document outlining the relationship between the church and the BSA. This relationships document is hammered out by the church leadership (at a national level). What we've sometimes found is that individual churches do not know about, or do not understand, this document. At least around here, our DE is very good at explaining the situation to those local churches. That frequently brings them back on board as chartering organizations.

 

Also, I think it is better to involve the DE in these discussions as well for the fact that it keeps you out of the rumor mill process. I know that in the town where I live, if a pack or troop started discussing the possibility of searching for a new charter partner, word would get out pretty quickly and it might cause hard feelings either with the current charter org., or (in the event that you don't switch) with any potential replacement charter orgs. Having the DE involved here makes the local politics a little easier for you and your pack.

 

Lisa'bob

[VinceC 10]

I have spoken to the DE on this and he is willing to speak with the churh. I am in the process of trying to find out who in our pack is a member of the CO church. Even if the CO provides us with the information we are looking for, I don't think they will act on the packs best interest in the future. I think they just like the "idea" of having an association with the BSA in some form, but are not willing to fulfill their part of the agreement. When I meet with the pastor, the head of the CO when we re-chatered to have the papers signed, I asked about more involvement from the CO and it's members, and how we wanted to share want we were doing. His response to me was "we just let the cub scouts do want they need to do. There're just kinda there." The pack also seems to get the blame for any mess that is left in the meeting room, restrooms,or kitchen at the church. At the beginnig of the year(sept) I was told of how we "left things" a mess after meetings. I promised the church I would take care of this and keep things in order. So before every meeting, I would arrive extra early and patrol the building, checking on its condition. It was ususally a mess before we started. I reported this, but some how we still took the blame. We always clean up after meetings, even if we didn't create the mess in the first place. Right now, it's only myself and the CC that have mentioned to each other only about a new CO. We definitely do not want rumors flying around.

[Newbie Den Leader 10]

QUOTE:

All our our papers are in order but one. A 501©(3) that states the church in charitable and nonprofit. The church refuses to provide it, and I recently found out that they have refusewd to in the past from an old pack member.

 

 

I know this really isnt the core issue that youre dealing with, but not all churches will have a 501c3 status. Churches automatically have tax-exempt status and are not required to file as a 501c3 corporation, especially if they are a part of a well recognized denominational structure. Your CO may not have a 501c3 to provide to you.

 

Good luck working things out with the CO. It sounds like youre an outstanding Cubmaster and I applaud your efforts for the boys and the Pack. Do you have any adult leaders who are active members of the CO? If so, take them with you to meet CO officials. Active membership of the CO is important. An inactive member (rarely or never attends) will probably not help your cause.

 

[t158sm 10]

Vince:

Sounds like you're grant is via Wal-Mart. Everything we've ever done in the way of their grants - VAP, matching and now the new community have been done using the BSA's 501©(3) number. Never had any problems with it.

[Crew21_Adv 25]

Vince,

 

WOW... I think I was the Cubmaster of your Pack about ten years ago!!!

 

It sounds sooo Eerily familiar.. lol

 

Especially being blamed for damages and trash left in the rooms that we never had keys for.

 

I have even seen two churches which ended their charter with their pack and troop. They did provide a service to the community and had many Scouts. The units certainly thanked the churches for their service. But the churches' idea of an outreach ministry was not what they originally imagined.

 

Both church boards voted to end their charter. (Personally, I think they average age of these churches just grew older. Every year there were fewer and fewer parents in the congregation. With time, the average age went from 35-45, to 60-70ish. And there was no common bond between congregation and the Scouting youth.) These events sent three units searching for new Chartering Organizations. No foul meant toward those churches, it could easily have been any chartering organization. With any organization there are usually 5 percent leaders and 95 percent follows. If that small amount of leadership makes up their mind, there is very little chance of change.

 

With your chartering organization, I hope the DE, UC and Committee can find some common thread that appeals to the church, as well as the Scouts, and make that internal change.

 

If not, ask the Chartering Organization if you may transfer the Charter. Keep it as a friendly lateral transition, rather than appearing to be a hostile separation. Good Luck!

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[VinceC 10]

 

Perhaps what really got to me, not just the lack of involvement, was the denial of being able to speak with someone in authority that makes these decisions. I was not even given a name, just the person's title. I was told the average tenure of the CM in the pack was 1 1/2 years. I can see why now. I have no intention of stepping down of my own choosing at any time soon. I really do enjoy it all. Am I expecting too much to have the CO be more active with the pack? How much interaction do other units have with their CO? How involved are they?

It is a good point that the chuch members are getting older. I believe this may be the case with the CO. None are on the committee, and the COR has never attended anything in the last 5 years at least.

Thanks again for everyones input.

Vince.

 

[oldsm 10]

VinceC,

 

Relationships are everything. From what I'm gleaning, your pack has been operating a vacuum, which Nature abhors.

 

Although it will take some consistent effort over time, I believe that the situation could be salvaged. But it will take time, persistence, and graciousness. Essentially, what you need to do is create and deliver a "marketing campaign" aimed at "selling" the church on the advantages TO THEM of being the chartering organization for your pack. A one-shot attempt won't do anything.

 

That said, if I were in your shoes, I would find someone in the pack who is a member of the church (or who at least attends), who could work the "back channels" to find out the names of the key people you need to speak with. It might or might not be your COR. Invite them to a pack meeting, or a couple of den meetings so that they can see the good work you are doing firsthand. Talk up the program, and keep things as positive as you possibly can.

 

In time, you can broach the subject of "we could be more effective if ... [enter item from your wish list: newsletter articles, freedom from persecution, greater involvement from COR, etc.]". Then let the back-channel person work for you.

 

It's also a BIG help to get to know the clergy and the secretary personally. A friendly, human face is an enormous plus.

 

If this approach is more than you want to bite off, or if it doesn't work, then you'll probably need to follow the charter-transfer advice so well stated by others in this forum.

 

In my troop's case, the CO provides us with meeting space. We have regularly-scheduled use of the fellowship hall. If we need more space (such as for Committee meetings, BORs, etc., we can usually just find a vacant classroom. They also give us bulletin board space where we can display our charter (framed), pictures of our activites, post our advancement chart, and display certificates we get for service projects. I'm told that a lot of people do look at it during coffee hour. Our COR has traditionally had very little involvement - not much more than a figurehead. When the last one moved away, we got one of the parents of a scout (who is a member of the church), to be the new COR. I have been on a first-name basis with the pastor, secretary, and other staff (including the custodian!) for years. They all know the quality of the program our troop runs. And we ALWAYS leave the place cleaner than we found it!

 

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I really believe that it's the personal relationships and bridge-building that makes COs proud to sponsor scouting units.

 

Good luck to you.

[Lisabob 13]

In my own experience, very few units have a very close relationship to their COs. One pack I was part of used the CO (local church) meeting room once a year or less and met at a nearby school the rest of the time. In fact I remember being very surprised to discover the church was the CO (I had thought it was the PTO), since they had nothing to do with us. Another pack I was part of, the CO was the school PTO. Even then, even though some of the PTO members had boys in the pack, we had a very distant relationship. They would attend something of ours once every couple of years despite repeated invitations. We did a couple of service projects for them - well really, for the school, and we coordinated with the school principal to do these, not the PTO (they weren't interested).

 

My son's troop is chartered by a service club that has not attended any of the troop's events in at least 5 years, does not provide a meeting space for us (they don't have one either - they meet in their members' houses), isn't interested in being part of our committee for anything more than on-paper-only requirements, and doesn't actively support any of our fundraisers or attempts to purchase and maintain gear. They DID ask us to fund raise for them though.

 

All of this is despite repeated attempts over the years to do all the things a unit ought to do, to build and keep a good relationship with their CO.

 

I'm not complaining here - at least these COs are not actively opposing anything or causing problems and I'm thankful they're willing to sponsor the units. But Vince, you asked what other people's relationships w/ their COs are like, and that's how ours have been. This isn't how they're supposed to work, ideally, but it does seem pretty common to have a very hands-off CO.

 

Lisa'bob

[VinceC 10]

 

Thanks Lisa. I agree, that as long as the CO isn't opposing what you do, and has a hands off approach, while isn't the best, it can work. Some of what frustrates me is the lack of cooperation. It took me nearly a month to get the head of the CO to sign my charter papers, and I made myself available 24/7 to do so. Over two weeks to get applications signed by the COR. It's seems that they don't want to be accessible to us. The church secretary won't even let me know the names of who I can speak to about things. When I asked if I could have the name of someone to speak to about the form I requested, I was told no, and that it was in the hands of the CO's legal council.

I am currently trying to locate a family in the pack that is a member of the of the CO. We have one of the largest packs in the area with 68 boys. So far 40 have responded that they are members of another church in town. 10 others are with other groups. Still checking on the rest. With so many members with the other church, it made me think about the possiblity of transfering the charter. Myself and the CC are both members of this other church. At one time they did have a boy scout troop, but it folded due to lack of membership. There were just to many troops in to small an area at the time. They may be receptive to us since all these boys also attend school at the church.

[LongHaul 10]

VinceC,

       Id suggest caution before you possibly alienate your current CO. Be sure you have a solid commitment from the other church to charter your Pack before you burn any bridges. My town had 5 Packs when the district appointed a new unit commissioner. After being informed of the national agreement Lisabob spoke of, one CO terminated the charter and asked that all monies and equipment be turned over to it. Another CO flat out asked its Pack to leave. Today we have only two packs left, both chartered by the same CO. When the status quo has been allowed to deteriorate into a state of non communication suddenly having the lights turned on may not result in the outcome you desire. Different Councils do things differently and not all unit commissioners are competent. Before asking the Pack Committee to contemplate a move I think you should find out if your Council will transfer your unit number and tenure and will your current CO allow you to take any monies and goods with you.

 Be Prepared,(read that somewhere sounds like good advice) 

LongHaul

[eagleSM 10]

 

VinceC wrote:

 

"I'm very frustrated with the situation. Is it time for a new CO? There is another local church that may be interested."

 

 

 

yes, it is time.

 

while i am certain that there will be those who disagree with me, i've been down this road before. you sound like a great leader, Vince, and you have done all that you can. it is time to move on.

 

we switched CO's several years ago, because of reasons that almost mirror your experience. since then, we have had tremendous growth thru the support (both financial & hands on contact) of our CO. the Church is there for us on Scout Sunday, service projects, Eagle Scout Projects, specific needs, etc.

 

i've always felt that good Unit/CO relationships is one of the most neglected subjects taught to Scouters-- but yet one of the most important.

 

over the years, i have seen that good units have two things in common: a good primary leader, & a good CO.

 

it is obvious Vince that you have 1 out of 2.

 

thats my two cents worth. good luck!

 

eagleSM

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn 61]

Sad as it may be there are some CO that just don't and never will take an interest in the units that they charter.

A lot depends on the person at the top.

Before I became a CM, our parish was blessed with a Parish Priest who took a very lively interest in the young people of the parish and the school. He was great with kids and both the parents and the kids liked him.

Sadly he got moved.

When I became CM,we got a nice enough Priest, but he was better working with older people and was more "Religious"?? than Father George was.

The Pack was just something that was there and he had inherited, it was there before he came and is still there now he is gone.

While it's great if you do find the Executive Officer who loves Scouts and Scouting, it does help if you can try and remember while the Pack or whatever the unit is? May be a very important thing to you, Scouting units may only be a very small thing to the top guy.

Our Parish has a lot of things going on, lots of different groups and each group thinks that they are special.

Dealing with large donations can be difficult.

If the donation is made to the church and the church passes it on to the Pack, who is to say that the choir who needs new robes aren't going to get upset?

I don't know about your SE or Council? But if the SE from our Council got the sniff of $1,000.00 He would want to get it into the Council coffers ASAP.

Again if the Council accepted the donation, it would be a Council Donation and the Council isn't in the business of donating to units.

Setting up a 501 (3)© for a pack is more than lightly not worth while.

All the wise words about trying to improve the relationship's with the CO are worth the effort.

Having a couple of friends on the parish council or Church Elders can also be a big help.

As for the complaints about the mess, I think just about every unit has at one time had to deal with much the same thing.

Eamonn.