Traditional Scouting

[ronvo 10]

I know I am not the only one who thinks that too much emphasis is put on advancement these daysand not enough on Scout craft. And I am not sure how to word my thoughts so see if this makes any sense.

 

First off - Scouting never was a Norman Rockwell picture just as American Life never was. Rockwell is an idealized picture. However I do think that his paintings were based in reality and that our realitiy has changed for the worse.

 

I would like to see more of the "old school" scouting. Pioneering, woodcraft, etc. A meeting where time is spent carving neckerchief slides not working on a Citizenship merit badge report.

 

Our troop's one patrol did poorly I am told at the Klondike. We now have a group of 10 new boys who just crossed over and I know that if we work on traditional scouting skills thses new boys can do well at next year's klondike and have real scout spirit - which I also think is lacking overall today.

 

Just look at Boy's Life. I have a lot of the old reprint books that have articles from BL that showed how to make camp equipment, boats, Indian lore crafts, pioneering prjects and more. BL sledom has anything like these articles anymore.

 

Is this realisitic or I am just dreaming of a Norman Rockwell ideal that is not realisitic.

Please let me know before I spend too much energy making myself crazy.

 

Sorry for my incoherence.

 

thanks for listening

 

ronvo

 

 

[DugNevius 10]

I agree. While "Scouting is Advancing" scouts need to get as much from scouts as possible and having a "Merit Badge" factory to churn out eagles is also limited in the over all picture. The key is to keep boys focused on the path to eagle while exposing them to as many different things that they normally would not be exposed to.

[John-in-KC 311]

Some of the things I learned as a Boy Scout are now antithetical to Scouting, let alone good human health:

 

"A tan is the sign of a healthy, active boy. No boy should ever want to have the sickly white of an indoor child."

 

That's a paraphrase of a comment in the 1965 edition of the Boy Scout Handbook. 40 years later, we know tans lead to skin cancer with exposure down the years...

 

Trench fires...

 

Building a "stream chiller" (digging a hole in the stream and lining it with rocks. ...

 

Browse beds...

 

Cutting saplings for pioneering projects...

 

Outdoorsmanship has advanced by orders of magnitude. Competition for use of outdoor space has advanced by orders of magnitude as the population in America grows, and as leisure time increases.

 

Further, what young people do has changed over time!! I had a live blade as a Cub Scout (1965), try doing that now!!!

 

IMO, the program has to leverage best practices in outdoor skills. It has to have sufficient "zing" to attract and retain young men.

 

Want to know something? A good Scoutmaster with a well-run PLC can get to that zing!

 

 

[dan 10]

When my son comes home from a Klondike or a Camparee or Camporall I never ask if his patrol won, I ask him if he had fun. The second question is did you learn anything.

I do not care what patrol wins, I do care if they had a good time and learned something.

[ronvo 10]

Dan

 

I agree that the boys having fun and learning is NUMBER ONE.

 

However , and I am not sure how the district we are in does it, when I was a scout - every patrol there could come home with a blue ribbon. The competition was against a standard and not the other patrols. This is how Scout Competition should be. And Blue ribbons are always more fun than yellow. I also believe that every Patrol is entitled to that Blue Ribbon through a progam with ZING and the opportunituies to learn Scoutcraft skills.

 

John - By traditionalist I am not saying that we disregard all the progess that has been made since we were boys. We do need to know how to prevent sun burn and not to just go hacking down trees and be leaders in stewardship of our natural resources.

 

The purpose I see in say pioneering is learning more than just tying sticks together. There is that ability to tie correct lashings yes, but also planning, teamwork, engineering, problem solving, etc that makes this "old fashioned" skill wothwhile today. That is what I think of as scouting.

 

Is anyone out there doing this?

 

YIS

ronvo

 

(This message has been edited by ronvo)

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Personally I cant wait to read Kudu's response, and I think I will agree with nearly all of it!

[CNYScouter 46]

I couldn't agree more with

The key is to keep boys focused on the path to eagle while exposing them to as many different things that they normally would not be exposed to.

 

I do not see anything wrong with the BSA program and needing to go back to "old school" Scouting.

The emphasis on Advancement is made by adults who want to "Eagle" on the sons College app or resume and want the fastest way to get it.

 

"New school" items can be taught (GPS, white-water kayaking etc.) using the same Scouting principles, if and only if adult leaders want to use them.

 

During SM Training advancement is given very little time, but yet there are troops that everything they do deals with getting their Scouts to Eagle.

 

Same can be said of Scout Spirit. At our SM Training/Outdoor Leader skills each patrol has to come up with a name , a flag and a yell. But, very few use this when they go back to their units.

 

If adult leaders are not willing to use the things that are taught during training there is not much you can do.

[Kudu 186]

In most of the world, "Traditional Scouting" refers to the Scouting program as designed by Baden-Powell, making changes only for reasons of 1) Health & Safety; 2) Environmental concerns ("Leave No Trace"--LNT), 3) Advances in outdoor clothing and lightweight equipment, and 4) Differences in climates and native cultures. An example of a typical "Americanized" 21st Century program based on Baden-Powell's program as it is now widely used in other countries can be found at The Inquiry Net:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/handbook/index.htm

 

Most Americans would probably define "Traditional Scouting" as William Hillcourt's BSA program prior to 1972, which is similar in some aspects to the above program. Hillcourt's traditional outdoor skills would remain largely intact if changes were made only due to advances in health & safety and environmental concerns. Claims to the contrary are more a matter of rationalizing the "modernization" of the program to meet corporate market-share needs, than a reasonable risk-assessment or environmental-impact study of "old-school" Scouting skills as they are now practiced in most "Traditional Scouting" associations, such as Baden-Powell Scouts.

 

Some of the Traditional Scouting Skills missing from the core BSA Advancement program are 1) Observation & Deduction: (Kim's Game, Woodcraft Trail Signs, Tracking Skills); 2) Signalling: (Morse code, semaphore, Indian sign language, American Sign Language--ASL); 3) Expeditions: "real-world" tests of Scouting skills free of adult presence: (2nd Class eight mile Journey [the only Expedition remnant in the BSA core program]; 1st Class 24 hour, 15 mile Journey; the Venturer Badge 20 mile Journey required for Bushman's Cord ["Life Scout"]).

 

Resume-Writing: The decline of the Patrol Method in American Scouting is due to in part to the increased emphasis on what looks good on a resume, namely "Leadership Development" and "Eagle Scout".

 

William Hillcourt, the inventor of the BSA's "Methods of Scouting" did not have a "Leadership Development" Method separate from the Patrol Method. In 1972, the introduction of "Leadership Development" required positions of responsibility for advancement beyond First Class and the conversion of Patrol Leader Training ("How to run a Patrol") into Junior Leader Training ("How to be a leader"). This meant that Patrol Leaders were no longer personally trained by the Scoutmaster on how to conduct Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Campouts, where the "old-school" Scoutcraft skills were actually practiced.

 

Rather than holding a Patrol election whenever a single Patrol needed or wanted a new Patrol Leader, the new "Positions of Responsibility" requirements encouraged Troops to hold regular Troop elections (often every six months) so that every Scout can get "his turn" at leadership for advancement.

 

The powers of the Patrol Leader were even further eroded at this time by the introduction of "Troop elections" to elect the Senior Patrol Leader, rather than Hillcourt's suggestion that he be appointed by the Patrol Leaders themselves.

 

As others have noted, perhaps the biggest blow to Traditional Scouting has been the emphasis at summer camp on earning Merit Badges for Eagle Scout. In most camps this means "efficient" dinning halls rather than Patrol Cooking. What passes for the Patrol Method at summer camp now often boils down to the Patrol Leader getting his Patrol out of bed, and marching to the dining hall by Patrols.

 

Is this realistic or I am just dreaming of a Norman Rockwell ideal that is not realistic.

 

Norman Rockwell's ideals only seem unrealistic because we have lost touch with the original vision of Scouting.

 

http://home.pcmagic.net/ogdenj/scout/pages/rockwell.htm#Red%20Cross

 

The most striking aspects of Rockwell's paintings (above) are that they often picture Scouts wearing their Uniforms in the great outdoors, and the Uniform shirts are designed so that the full-sized (32" X 32") Scout Neckerchief is prominent. Except for swimming, is there any photograph or drawing in any BSA Boy Scout Handbook of that era that shows a Scout outdoors without his Uniform?

 

The imposition upon Scouting of an indoor Uniform represents conservative values: The indoor dress designer's Uniform that most Scouts do not want to wear is enforced with rigid commandments ("Obedience" and "Loyalty"), and sometimes by holding other Methods of Scouting (such as Advancement) hostage to the Uniform. A poorly designed indoor Uniform reflects the world-view that people can be coerced into goodness (these conservative ideals represent what Michael Lerner calls "The Right Hand of God").

 

The Scouts of Norman Rockwell's paintings, proud to wear the best outdoor Uniform of their day, reflect Traditional Scouting's spiritual conviction that Character, Fitness, and Citizenship are best forged by awe & wonder of the great outdoors (Baden-Powell's "Religion of the Backwoods"), as well as the values of generosity, kindness, cheerfulness, and hope (Baden-Powell's "Practical Christianity" and Michael Lerner's "Left Hand of God").

 

Kudu

 

 

[Eamonn 61]

The first #1 record on the Apple label in the UK was by a female Welsh singer called Mary Hopkin. She sang "Those were the days." The single (45 rpm) was released on February 21, 1969.

I was a young teenager back in 1969. Pop music was very important to me. A 45 cost six shillings and sixpence or you could buy 3 for a pound.

My parents didn't understand why the heck I wanted a record player with two speakers!!

While I spent many happy hours playing my guitar (a cricket bat) or singing into my mike (Anything that came to hand; a pen, a banana- you name it.) The big thing to do was buy a new album and invite my friends around to listen to it and if they drooled so much the better.

A big part of growing up is spending time with people who are about your own age and enjoy doing some of the same things that you enjoy doing. At times it may seem to old people that nothing is being done, but they are old and just don't get it.

Scouts and Scouting has since day one given kids an opportunity to hang out with other kids and share adventures and challenges with other kids.

One good thing about most of the "Traditional Activities" is that the cost spread out over time makes the activity fairly inexpensive.

Some units seem to zero in on a particular activity and it becomes their thing. We have one Troop in the Council that just loves Philmont, it seems to me that they are always off to Philmont or getting ready to go. We have others that have made canoeing their thing.

We have one Crew that does shooting. As a result a lot of it's members are now into dare I say it Paint-ball (not as a BSA activity) I was talking with one Lad who had his paint-ball gear in the truck of his car and he gave me the guided tour of his equipment that cost several thousand of dollars.

I have taken a lot of Scouts up the mountain for skiing and snow boarding. Many belong to the ski club at school, most have fun but very few are willing to invest the money to take it up as a serious hobby. Of course there are exceptions to every rule.

The other night the Ship was doing a ceremony at our Council volunteer recognition dinner, they somehow finagled a table to themselves. Eating is an activity that never goes out of style. I looked at them. They were having a good time just being together, but a couple had their I-pods and were sharing the ear-phones with other Scouts.

Sure it wasn't my old record player, but food, friends and a safe place for them to be them.

Things haven't changed that much!!

 

Ride A White Swan

 

Ride it on out like a bird in the skyway,

Ride it on out like you were a bird,

Fly it all out like an eagle in a sunbeam,

Ride it all out like you were a bird.

(Marc Bolan and T. Rex)

Eamonn.

[t158sm 10]

The traditional Scouting skills have taken a back seat in the program. Just take a look at the current Scout handbook. There are times when I'll mention something to a Scout and they won't be able to find it in the handbook. I'll then find that it's simply not there anymore.

There was an article about a kids nature camp I read a year or so ago that mentioned having to teach kids to walk uphill. The kids it seems had spent their entire lives on level ground, never really knowing what the outdoors was like. They even had to be convinced that there were no lions and tigers waiting to pounce on them when they strayed much away from home.

A woman I talked to yesterday was buying a large inflatable water slide for her kids. I happened to mention that they didn't have things like that when either of us was growing up and that we were often happy playing with sticks and dirt. How many kids today would play with sticks and dirt?

To me the adventure in Scouting is simply the outdoors. Away from television, video games, computers, terrorism . . . Hike in the wilderness, float down a river, explore a cave, breath fresh air - anything. The more you can learn about how to get by comfortably and safely in the outdoors the better off you are. The more enjoyment you'll have to boot.

The more Scouting strays from its roots the more it will decline. The more merit badge mills and Eagle factories we have the worse off Scouting will become as a whole. Already Scouting isn't what it used to be. When did Scouting begin its decline? 1972 - with the change in the program that de-emphasized the outdoor program from that of William Hillcourt.

The solution to Scoutings decline - IMHO - Let the Scouts have responsibility and stick them outdoors.

Train them, trust them, let them lead.

 

[John-in-KC 311]

Looking at Kudu's list, there is only one skillset of Hillcourt's that needs fundamental change for the 21st Century: Signalling.

 

I no of NO ONE who uses flag signalling anymore, and that includes a couple of Fourth World threat nations.

 

The amount of traffic that passes through keyed Morse is steadily going down. It's a bandwidth management method that even in the Fourth World is moving the way of the passenger pigeon.

 

Now, those said, are there things we can do to teach signalling to our youth? Yes. Sign languages for the deaf, which reinforces sensitivity to special needs. Ditto Braille. Being able to make a survival signal for when you're lost in the backwoods. Ditto a survival fire.

 

Now, that is way beyond the aims and methods. I've shifted down into techniques and specific tools. Those CAN be modernized, to keep what we do near the state of the art in outdoor practice. Since the Scouting movement uses outdoorsmanship as the delivery medium, we really do have to stay near best practices going forward.

 

Kudu, thank you for your insights. They were much more than worth the time spent reading them.

[Eagledad 2779]

>>I no of NO ONE who uses flag signalling anymore, and that includes a couple of Fourth World threat nations.

[EagleInKY 14]

Two years ago we had a semaphore competition at our fall camporee. Our guys loved it. In fact, when the district camporee was cancelled this past fall we held our own "troop camporee" and they asked to do it again! Plans for this fall's district camporee are already in the works and we expect to be well prepared for it this time around.

[Kudu 186]

John-in-KC writes:

 

Looking at Kudu's list, there is only one skill set of Hillcourt's that needs fundamental change for the 21st Century: Signalling.

 

John, I'm sure a hundred years ago Boy Scout modernists said the same thing about including Indian Sign Language in 20th Century Signalling :-)

 

Traditional signaling takes a boy's natural interest in codes and develops his ability to observe and communicate using only simple tools to engage his hands and his powers of observation. As William Tomkins, author of Universal Indian Sign Language of the Plains Indians of North America wrote, "As Boys are always interested in mystery, secrecy, and all things that are beyond their comprehension. Sign language can be made a vital part of the troop, for building troop spirit and troop interest." See The Inquiry Net:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/native/sign/vitalizing.htm

 

Now, that is way beyond the aims and methods. I've shifted down into techniques and specific tools. Those CAN be modernized, to keep what we do near the state of the art in outdoor practice.

 

The central idea behind Traditional Scouting is to preserve the game of Scouting as it was originally played. The "Aims and Methods" are a useful way of looking at how we practice Scouting, but they are merely a model. The "Methods of Scouting" were invented in 1947 by William Hillcourt, but in 1972 they were neutered to make way for the corporate "modernization" of Scouting. The main idea was to make Scouting techniques "relevant" by moving forward from the forests and streams to a state of the art "urban emphasis." To this end they completely eliminated Hillcourt's first (and most important) Method of Scouting:

 

"The Scout Way: A Game, NOT a Science."

 

For an outline of the history of the ever-changing methods of Scouting, See:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/adult/methods/index.htm

 

Therefore the post-1972 "Eight Methods" are out of whack and not to be completely trusted by those who follow the Scout Way.

 

Barry writes: I think we simply dont understand how traditional skills turn our sons into ethical decision makers anymore.

 

Concentrating on the primitive keeps Scouts' senses close to the natural environment in which both the human body and human society evolved. Baden-Powell's interest in the wilderness as his training ground for citizenship was twofold:

 

a) Scout Law becomes not an abstract moral code, but a practical list of how to get along with the Scouts in your Patrol when confronted with real forces of nature. If you can't run to the corner store, then being trustworthy and thrifty while cooking keeps the food from being burned and everyone fed and happy. Without the distraction of technology, being friendly, courteous, kind, and cheerful helps everyone get along when you are all wet, cold, and tired. Being helpful with each others tents and gear helps keep each other protected from the elements.

 

b) A Scout's use of his hands and simple tools in the woods can lead to the spiritual insight that B-P called "The Religion of the Backwoods." Anyone who has backpacked alone in the wilderness understands this intuitively.

 

See:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/b-p/backwoods.htm

 

B-P's "natural religion" was based on The Order of Nature, written by the most progressive eminent cleric in mid-nineteenth century England, his father.

 

See:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/order_nature/index.htm

 

Kudu

 

 

[ronvo 10]

In looking over the lists of the methods on Kudu's site, what I notice is that "ideals and service" seem to be replaced by personal growth and leadership development.

 

The former items seeming more concrete (the oath, law, service good turns) than the abstract latter (personal growth and leadership development).

 

Making these last two methods has led us to book learning leadership rather than learning leadership and groeing personally naturaly from the concrete living of the oath and law and doing service.

 

 

OMO,

ronvo