new troop/leader positions?

[sunsetandshadow 10]

We are starting a new troop this spring that will consist of 2 weblos crossovers and three 11 year old boys new to scouting. Our charter organization has not had an active troop in 20 years. (The pack had been inactive as well until 5 years ago when we started with one tiger den.)

 

Well now the boys and their weblos leader are ready to move up to scouts. They have a great leader who is a former boy scout with no boys currently in scouting. The charter organization representive (who use to be scoutmaster 20-30 years ago) has said he was glad to finally have boys in his troop. He plans on registering as scoutmaster and the current weblos leader will become asst. scoutmaster. The CO rep has also said that the asm will fill the role as scout troop leader as well.

Now I am not real familiar with the workings of a troop verses that of a pack but I thought the SM was the "leader" and that below him were boy patrols led by boy patrol leaders.

I was informed that the order went

SM

ASM

TL (troop leader)

ATL

PL's

 

I am worried becasue the CO rep is very hands off and he will not be attending any meetings. He says that is what the troop leader is for. He is about 80 years old as well and not very agile.He is also not willing to step down as scoutmaster. Did I mention that the boys were afraid of him. He comes across as an elderly man who does not like children. We have no troop committe or pack committe (they are simply names he fills in from the VFW membership list) We have contacted committe members and they did not know they were on the committe or were told they did not have to do anything, that it was just paperwork.

From what I understand the boys must meet before the committe members to advance in rank. So we have 3 parents volunteered to register as committe members but that means that when a boy goes before the committe it will always be before a relative.

We are having a boy scout school night this month to see if we can get more boys and/or parents interested in the boy scout program. We are visiting the 5,6,7th graders at school to invite them to join.

The nearest troop is 60 miles away and we have never met them. Since the boys were always planning on creating their own troop the weblos requirement to meet with the troop you will join seemed out of place. I know some boy scout purists will argue this decision but we are trying to do what is best for these boys.

 

Could someone please clear up the proper adult leadership roles in a troop.

Thankyou

 

By the way I know many people will just recommend recruiting more boys and parents but we have been trying that for years. Scouting is not very popular here as sports and other activites win out. Sometimes we get boys interested but rarely do we get parents willing to volunteer. Our problem has been that we want to give the boys a good program but how do you do that with minimal adult volunteers? We have tried to use our parent voluteers wisely to avoid burnout.

[FScouter 24]

Welcome to the forums.

Your description of the leader positions and relationships is a little confusing. Id suggest that you and all the adults that want to be involved with the new troop first get on the web and take Boy Scout Leader Fast Start Training. It takes about a half an hour.

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/faststart/index.html

The Troop Committee Guidebook also has lots of good information

 

[ScoutNut 147]

As FScouter said, ALL of you REALLY need to get trained. Scouting has changed in the last 20, 30 years or so & being a Scoutmaster is a LOT different than being a Scout. Fast Start is a great place to start. After that contact your District Training Chair to see about bringing training out to your unit.

 

Here are some additional training modules online at the National website that might be helpful :

 

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/supplemental/index.html

 

http://www.scouting.org/relationships/04-113/index.html

 

Your COR can NOT register as both a COR & the Scoutmaster. The COR can double register as ONLY the Committee Chair or a Committee Member. He has to choose what he wants to do & since you state that he will not be attending any meetings, how can he be the Scoutmaster?

 

For Board of Reviews you can NOT have a parent serve on the BOR for his son. You can also NOT have the SM or ASM serve as as a BOR member. You have 5 new scouts, REQUIRE 1 parent from each family to register as a Committee Member, this will solve the problem of parents on their son's BOR.

 

Talk to the head of your VFW, not the COR, explain that if they want THEIR unit to succeed the unit will need their help. Maybe you could attend a VFW meeting and talk to the membership. Tell them about THEIR Boy Scout Troop & explain that you are in need of a few members to become ACTIVELY INVOLVED.

 

When your District Training Chair comes out, be sure he includes CO, COR, & Committee Challenge training.

 

Troop positions - Adult

 

IH - Institutional Head - Head of the Charter Organization

COR - Charter Organization Representative

CC - Committee Chair

MC - Committee Member

SM - Scoutmaster

ASM - Asst Scoutmaster

 

Troop positions - Youth

 

SPL - Senior Patrol Leader

ASPL - Asst Senior Patrol Leader

PL - Patrol Leader

APL - Asst Patrol Leader

 

There are other positions (adult-FOS Chair, Advancement Chair, Merit Badge Counselor, Treasurer, etc, etc. Youth-Den Chief, Scribe, Quartermaster, etc, etc), but these are the main ones you were interested in. Notice, there is no such thing as "Troop Leader" or "Asst Troop Leader".

 

 

BTW - Some unsolicited (& probably unwanted) comments from a scouting "purist" -

 

This is JMO, but "doing whats best for the boys" should NOT include "tweaking" MAJOR requirements for the AOL. Doing activities with a Boy Scout Troop is is how the Webelos learn what a Boy Scout is & what they do. How do they learn that doing activities ONLY with their own Webelos den? It doesn't matter if you were planning on starting your own Troop in the future - they were/are Webelos NOT Boy Scouts. OK, 60 miles is not right next door, but I bet that your families have gone at least that far for a vacation or for shopping. The boys deserved the chance to see at least 1 established Boy Scout Troop in action.

 

What is your new Troop planning to do about Summer Camp (or regular Troop camping)? Are there certified camping facilities or council summer camps under 60 miles away? What about council activities like Camporees or National Youth Leadership Training. What about merit badges? Will you have in-house counselors only? Will they be registered & trained merit badge counselors, or just parents?

 

Not that I want to start another "tweaking" discussion, but once "tweaking" of BSA policies starts it can easily become a habit.

 

edited for speling(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

[sunsetandshadow 10]

Thankyou for your replies. There have been some "tweaking" of requirements and I am trying my best to have those corrected. I do believe that the integrity of the program is at stake when we allow substitutuions and changing of the rules. I also believe that there are some requirements that are hard to follow/accomplish and we are trying our best in a small pack/troop.

 

Scoutnut,thankyou for listed the leadership positions. Our problems start with the fact that the same man is the IH (president of vfw), COR, CC, and now stated that he will be the SM but he will not be running the troop. He also controls the checkbook for the pack even though we have a treasurer. He stated that there have been problems in the past he will handle the money. I know from experience that the problem are due to him registering adults to meet the committe requirements and position requirements even though those people had nothing to do with the pack. Then he expected us to pay their registration even though we require the boys and parents to pay their own registration. So we spent over half our popcorn money on rechartering. WE made 170$ and paid 90$ on recharter our first year. But I am getting off the point. Since He has been in scouting for 60-70 years he comes to the table as knowing it all and he gets angry if anyone makes any suggestions. We have been polite in an effort not to hurt his feeling but he has said he started this pack 50 years ago so I doubt he will change. All we can do it try to work with him or around him. There is some bad blood as he takes credit when things go right and blames everyone else when they do not work out. This is a small town and he is a well know citizen and many people do not wantt o anger him. In small towns ticking off the wrong person can really make life difficult, ecspecially for the boys. It's not fair, but it's life.

 

AS for camping we use the wildlife refuge that is open to the public, i do not know if it is bsa approved or even how you check to see if it is approved. We use these campgrounds because they are close, cheap, and allow family style camping. Besides the den leader we have one other mom and my self that come along to meet the 2 deep leadership requirment. Between the two of us we have 7 tag along sublings (not counting the scout boys). That includes 5 girls and 2 toddler boys. That makes camping at a bsa campground difficult. We are both the only registered ADL for weblos.

 

As for the training matter, i have talked to the district about their scheduled trainings and round tables. They are all held on school nights at 7pm with over an hours drive each way. I have repeatedly asked if they could scheduele training for a differnt time or day and they said they would look into it. That was 5 years ago. All of our leaders (except one) are moms with other children .

 

most of the boys have not gone to cubscout daycamp in the summer because the 35$ fee is too high. 90% of the children in public school here are on some kind of free or reduced lunch and breakfast at school. Camporees and NAtionial Troop Leadership Training are not even on our radar. We struggle to get everyone to buy a shirt, no one buys the pants. Then there is transportation and the cost of fuel.I have had parents not bring there son to a meeting becasue they have no money for gas until payday at the end of the week. I have an suv but I also have 5 children so there are no extra seats. Another parent has 4 children and the other parent of the active scout is PTA president and doesn't have much time. The last two boys are ones we had to beg to join scouts to make up our 5 minimum requirment for a troop. I would love it if we had an established troop close by but that is not the reality. My husband does not want our son associating with the city boys that live 60 miles away because there lifestyle and ours varies greatly.(no judgment here just different lifestyles)

 

Our council headquarters is a 3 to 3 1/2 hour drive away and most activites are centered there in saint louis. We have no plans of attenting those activities becasue the distance is impractical.And while i may drive 60 miles to go shopping or on vacation i do not feel comfortable having my 10 year old son that far away when i am not confidant in the bsa leadership.

 

another issue- if we required parents to register as a committe member when there son joins many would just not join. We tried that in cubscouts, many parents dropped out when they realized they were required to help out. Is it fair to punish a boy if he wants to join but his parent will not help? There is one boy who wants to join our troop but him mom said only if we take him to every meeting and bring him home (he lives 2 miles from us). Many boys are from single mom households where they joined scouts so their son could have male rolemodels. But we only have one male so far. And many dads work shiftwork, nights, or are away on the railroad or truckdriving. I explain this becasue at a recent meeting with the cubmaster I told her that i did not feel comfortable with some outings as the 2 deep leadership was not being met. At one overnight the DL used his 16 year old non scout step-son as his "second leader". I would not allow my son to go. The cubmaster told me that my husband should have gone along and since he did not it was not her problem but mine. Many parents are not avaliable for all outings/meetings.

 

 

 

We have looked into the merit badge counselor program and many dads have agreed to sign up since this is something they can do on their own scheuele. And most boys will probably work on the merit badges their family members sign up for a counselors first.

 

Thanks again for the advice - i will look into the traing you suggested.

[Kudu 186]

"Troop Leader" is the term used in most of the world for what we call the "Senior Patrol Leader," and the Patrol Leaders serve as the assistant Troop Leaders.

 

When your COR was a Scout, the "Patrol Leaders' Council" was called the "Troop Leaders' Council."

 

With five Scouts, you just need a Patrol Leader, not an SPL or (God forbid) an Assistant SPL :-)

 

I am worried because the CO rep is very hands off and he will not be attending any meetings. He says that is what the troop leader is for.

 

During the two World Wars some Troop Leaders/Senior Patrol Leaders did run their Scout Meetings without adult supervision :-)

 

As everyone else has said, get to training! The BSA has some good videos that show how a BSA Troop and its Committee is supposed to work. Most Council offices will loan them to you for free.

 

Kudu

http://kudu.net/

 

 

 

[anarchist 10]

sunsetandshadow,

 

Find a new CO- staying with your "current cub CO" ...as you form a new troop is asking for more pain than it is worth.

 

Second, what you are starting is not a troop...it is the local chapter of Baby Sitters of America...Parents don't want to be involved and you don't want the kids to suffer...Get real, grow up and save yourself a lot of burn out...Starting a troop is hard work! Starting a troop with your "proverbial hands tied behind your back" is just plain stupid! If the families want a Scouting program, they must make minimal commitments!Serving on the committee is pretty minimal.

 

You mention sports is big in the area...how many of these families would make the extra effort if Junior was a football or baseball "star"...yes I know ...that would be different...I mean going the extra MILE for a sport is, like, TOTALLY different, man... (yes I know I'm sugar coating 'it', but I am the shy, retiring type)

 

Isn't there a church, or Lions Club, Elk or Moose Lodge, FOP, Fire Hall, Ruritans, Grange heck even a Chamber of Commerce you can approach? The old guy who is wanting to ruin...er, I mean run your show is just way too much trouble to mess with...(face it Scouting has changed since 1492 er,.. 1945 er,...1980...even)

 

And next, the CO should not be "banging" you up-side the check book to register their members as troop MCs (members of the committee)...They should pay their own way if they want to run the show. FIND a New CO for the Troop...say thanks but no thanks...

 

with some luck you might be able to find a better meeting location...so more folks can join...or come to meetings...regularly.

 

"tag along sibs"...find a way to "untag" them...maybe share or rotate child/sibling sitting duties...Boy Scouts need "away time"...time to be Boy Scouts and work on boy scout "stuff" without 4,5,6 or more sibs hanging around, and/or taking time from the program. Some kind of sitter-service trade would open up car seats to help scouts get to meeings, too.

 

Maybe it (child care) will be a planning nightmare but scouting in a daycare setting just can't be easy. The sounds of this "birth of a troop" has many of the same "notes" as a train wreck...(I know, there I go sugar coating things again).

 

Pour a cup of coffee with the other parents and do some rethinking and soul searching there has got to be a better way.

 

good luck

anarchist

[ScoutNut 147]

Have you considered contacting the Scoutreach division of your council? They might be able to help with some of this. At the very least they might be able to help with some used or low cost uniforms.

 

 

[Kudu 186]

Baby Sitters of America...Get real, grow up...just plain stupid! families ...must make minimal commitments! Serving on the committee is pretty minimal.

 

sunset,

 

You will be getting a lot of contradictory advice, don't let it get you down. The Spirit of Scouting, among other things, is being concerned about other people and volunteering to help others without expecting a reward. In some neighborhoods you will be lucky if you ever see some of the Scouts' parents. If you adopt a "no nonsense" approach and insist that parents join the Committee at a minimum, you will deny Scouting to many boys over the years, some of whom will become your strongest leaders as well as future adult citizens in your community shaped in part by your actions.

 

I think you will have better luck if you try to persuade parents who "can't help out" if you ask them in the future for help with some specific small task, something with a definite beginning and end, such as cooking something for a COH, or driving to an occasional campout. This may eventually become easier if their son sticks to it and if it seems to be helping him in some way.

 

The larger the Troop, the more potential adult volunteers you will attract.

 

Don't get overwhelmed. Scouting is a game in which Scouts camp once a month in a Patrol and work on some outdoor skills. If the Scouts are having fun, the rest will take care of itself.

 

Kudu

[Lisabob 13]

Sunset&shadows, I really admire what you are doing to bring the scouting program to boys who otherwise would not have any opportunities to be scouts. Starting new units is hard work under the best circumstances and it sounds like you have some difficult hurdles to overcome in the process too.

 

If you can manage it at all, it sounds as though you would be better served to find a different sponsor. Given the difficulties you've mentioned and the entrenched position of the one adult who thinks he is going to run everything (but not be at the meetings!), I can't see how this will work out. Charter organizations don't have to be service clubs; they could be church groups, PTOs, community groups, or even just a bunch of parents who want to form the "Friends of Troop XXX" group.

 

As for training, uniforming, program, and other stuff: your council headquarters are a long drive away. Are you by any chance closer to a neighboring council? If so, contact THEM and ask about attending their training - they should be happy to have you. From your description I'm guessing that you are located in the Southeastern part of the state? (seems like there is better geographic coverage of the western and northern parts of the state, in terms of where councils are located) If so, you may even find that trainings offered by a council that is located in a border state are more convenient for you. (That would indeed be a sad commentary on your home council but...)

 

Still, you should try to press the training issue with your own council yet again. Council execs like to see new units started and may be more willing to move heaven and earth to get you up and running, now that you are starting a new troop. Another person to talk with is your district training chair. You can find out who that is by contacting your council. As a last resort, if you can't get a training session scheduled that meets your needs, you could ask the training chair to at least send you the syllabus for the basic leader training so you can read it over yourself. You wouldn't be "trained" but at least you'd have material to share with your new leaders. Though, given the dynamics of the situation, it really sounds as though having an outsider come in to do the training would be helpful (in terms of dealing with your entrenched, and incorrect, elder leader).

 

In the meantime, the faststart training on line is certainly helpful and you can also do Youth Protection Training on line (this should be a "must-have" for all your leaders IMO).

 

Last thought, and apologies for rambling:

 

If you don't get a good response from your district training chair re: setting up a training day, also contact your district membership chair (again, contact council to get a name and phone #). Their job is to encourage growth and they might be able to help you navigate the council and district bureaucracies, or at least put you in contact with other useful people.

 

Good luck! And keep us posted.

 

Lisa'bob

[John-in-KC 311]

Couple of thoughts here...

 

First, your IH/COR/CC/SM ... he really, truly needs to divide the labor. That he said he was going to be SM but not be there does not help the kids.

 

THE SCOUTMASTER'S BIGGEST SINGLE JOB IS MENTOR TO THE YOUTH!!!

 

Yes, I yelled that

 

At a minimum, whoever is going to be the adult responsible for the program should get the honor, the fun, and yes the responsibility of being the Scoutmaster.

 

I endorse much of what's been said here, especially about training. The program wasn't what it was 10 years ago, and it certainly isn't what it was 20-30 years ago. The aims are still the same, and the methods are probably the same (I've never drilled into how methods evolved over time), but the actual techniques change.

 

I also endorse what Lisa said about contacting your Council office and asking about Scoutreach.

 

Desireable adult training package:

Fast Start

Youth Protection

New LEader Essentials "common core"

SM Fundamentals and/or Troop COmmittee Challenge

Outdoor Leader (whatever it's called this month).

 

Keep us informed; we'll be glad to help however we can.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[sunsetandshadow 10]

Thanks for the suggestions. The reason I am so involved in making this scouting program work is the fact that this is the one program my son loves to participate in. He is not that great at sports and has had some difficulty in social areas in school but he really shines in scouting. The discipline and the rules of the program foster an environment that keeps him motivated.

 

The one rule I do not like is the minimum number of boys required to have a troop. If three boys are dedicated and interested but cannot participate unless they find 2 others to join does not seem fair. We looked into the lone scout program but was told it was not avaliable to those who live in our council.

 

I will look into other councils of neighboring states. I do indeed live in SE MO. And yes most of the time it feels like we have been abandoned by the council. We just changed district exec. (i think thats what she was called) so we will see how the new responds to questions.

 

This forum is a great resource for advice, information, and sometimes a place to vent my frustrations:)