What would you do?

[NIscouter 10]

I know this is an odd title, but I am in a spot that I am not sure if I am on a sane course of action. My son, who with minimal prompting from me, has progressed to up to Star by 13 1/2. He is in a patrol which has one scout (lets say "Ralph") who has little to no motivation to be a scout or in our troop, it appears, but continues to come none the less. Well, "Ralph" has made it his "mission" to make my son miserable in many ways. This came out in the recent Patrol elections when my son ran for PL, was the only scout at the election meeting who wanted to be PL, and "Ralph" basically talked the patrol into electing a scout who was not at the meeting and had been a poor PL just 3 months ago. My son took this all very hard, it has obviously soured him a bit with Boy Scouts, and I fear he is starting look to leave the troop.

 

Well, this has been a tough spot for me, as I am very active in the troop, in the midst of completing my ticket for WB, and am very conflictd over being a dad or a scouter. I have meantioned this to the ASMs and SM, who I do work well with, but always talk from the point of view of a Dad and I have, to my surprise, avoided getting involved in this situation as a scouter. Should I change my tactics, or continue to hope this "Ralph" doesn't sour my sons experience to the point that he wants to leave scouting?

 

Of course, there is more to this story, but I don't want this to be overly long.

 

So, what would you do?

 

Signed,

Conflicted Scouter/Dad(This message has been edited by NIscouter)

[OldGreyEagle 5]

What would you do if you werent a Scouter? Just because you are a leader doesnt mean you have to let a bully mess with your son's scouting experience.

[madkins007 10]

A few thoughts...

 

1.) In our unit, a boy cannot be elected to a position without being at the meeting, unless he had previously made his interest known. (We actually had boys 'announce' their interests a couple weeks before any election- campaing flyers and all!)

 

2.) At 13.5 and/or as a Star Scout, he should have seen situations like this before. Learning how to deal with them is a part of growing up. Our job as leaders and parents sometimes is helping boys deal with things better.

 

3.) What does your son want to happen at this point? Would he want a new election (there are some real downsides to that, but if the elected boy is not doing the job or does not really want it, this is a valid option- especially if he was not there.)

 

4.) Any thought on what the other members of the patrol think? I'm curious as to why 'Ralph' was able to sway a majority to doing something that seems so dumb on the surface of it. Is it possible that the others did not want your son for some reason? Certainly it is entirely possible that 'Ralph' is just both jealous and a smooth talker.

 

5.) I appreciate that you are conflicted. This shows that you are considering several aspects of the situation rather than just charging in. I also appreciate that even though you are involved enough to go for WB you are still working the chain of command.

 

6.) My bottom line- I think I'd talk to my son. Get a feel for what he wants and then work with him and the unit to make it happen. Does he just want 'Ralph' off his back? There are ways to accomplish that goal. Does he want a POR? Most units have ways to make this possible between elections (ours does not elect certain positions, but rather appoints them- QM, Den Chiefs, etc.)

[Eagle Foot 10]

OGE is right. I may stand corrected but the Scoutmaster may disapprove and approve patrol leaders as he does the SPL. If you are not a member of the committee you should be and have your voice heard. If there is a problem let the committee know. Rembember and this is not always easy, you may have to visit several troops before you find the right one. Your scout is young enough that finding the right troop will provide more years to enjoy before his eighteenth birthday than he as already covered from the age of eleven. If the Scoutmaster has been trained he should be able to see this (he should even if is not)and work to making things right. You are expected to be involved as a dad...shoulden't be any other way. You are also expected to set the example and follow the Scout Oath and Law. Keep bringing into play the Scout Oath and Law and you will find it will have a way of changing how things work.

 

Bing into play what you have learned from Woodbadge that's what it's ment to be done with...training, training, training, pass it on. I'm sure you will make the right choice. Maybe your son can get Ralph on the road to Eagle...the Golden Rule also applies in Scouting.

 

Edited by Eagle Foot

[Fuzzy Bear 12]

NI,

 

Counsel with your son to find out what his goals are in Scouting. Speak to him about persistence and loyalty. When bad decisions are made, that is time to "stay the course" or be patient and supportive. Leadership comes from knowing what a person has to offer a group and then being there when it is needed. If things are as you stated, then his services will soon be in demand. It is that kind of example that we want of our Scouts. Hopefully, his only worry should be on how to obtain the necessary MB's for Life Scout.

FB

[FScouter 24]

Bullying has no place in Scouting and if it is taking place in your troop, it must be stopped. There is no excuse at all for allowing bullying to continue. Insist that the SM and committee deal with the problem and make it stop. The SM Handbook and G2SS talk about this.

[anarchist 10]

OGE and FSCOUTER- (disappointment abounds!)

 

Bullying? Bullying? I saw not a single reference to BULLYING. Do you have more info than the original post?

 

NIscouter wrote:

"Ralph" has made it his "mission" to make my son miserable in many ways"...

 

reading the post again... I can (personally) see no "bully" comment...unless persuading the majority to vote a particular way is bullying...(Is George "W" Bush a bully???) Democracy in action can be a dirty thing to watch, but lets not jump to conclusions...there could be(probably is) more here than meets the eye...but what leads you to bullying?

 

No offense but, If being "turned down" by a patrol has made the boy so dejected that he is looking to leave the Troop, I think I would be working to help the youngster to grow up a bit...(in a nice gentle way, of course).

 

Life is going to heap a bunch of disappointments on the boy and how he learns to deal those set-backs is part of character development...(think that's still in the BSA program, right?)...

 

Being miserable and/or quiting over an election is not a good start...does not show any rudamentary leadership skills nor maturity but it is a good place for the SM to start...not NIscouter.

 

NIscouter...your instincts were good on this...share this matter with the SM and the ASM in charge of the Patrol. Give them your thoughts and back away...Give them a chance to work on it (hopefully with their SPL).

 

AS a Scouter what could you do? What would you do that would be different than a concerned parent? Gonna throw "Ralph" out of the troop? Going to intimidate him?

 

I am curious..just because he (RALPH)is not motivated to "Eagle out" a 14 or doesn't get along with another boy in his patrol he is less deserving of the program? I assume he pays his dues, seems he comes to meeting...He might need scouting more than 50% of the boys in the troop... who knows. Another question: Doesn't he have a right to "work" the election process? (just being an advocate here...no offense intended)...now that said....

 

As a dad, try to help your son work through this...Unless violence is "pending", time is not real critical here...given time, (heck most of the time) the boys will/may work it out themselves. Making and adversary an ally is always a good thing and can be lots of "fun" at the start...in a "gaming" sort of way. Learning to coexist is also an important life skill...He is not going to be able to pick his classmates, teammates, those he works with or the people above him on the "food chain" in the real world... so now is a good time to start working on those skills.

 

Having the SPL mediate between the two is a good thing... little NIscouter-who-is-Star can/should ask the SPL to help with any issues between the two scouts.

 

Keep in mind guys (girls), there are always more than one "take" on any story (the participants usually can only see one side, however). And always counseling to "get out! Run to another troop" is not always the answer...sometimes it is just plain old hard work.

 

How many times have we read that "the First troop was bad, thought this one would be better, little jonnie is still unhappy, we now see the scouters in the new troop are worse than the last twits, the next troop is a longer drive...like the next planet (exaggeration mine)" Goodness, while leaving is sometimes the ony way I feel it should be a last resort...I wonder how many times just rolling up the sleeves, finding a middle ground...compromising some and working hard could just be the real answer?...but hey, I just a progressive at heart...

my $3.12 a gallon worth

Anarchist

[OldGreyEagle 5]

I was responding to the comment that Ralph has made it his mission in life to make nlscouter's son miserable in many ways. I took the story of the PL election as just an example, not the whole story.

[anarchist 10]

OGE

 

I spent 15 years making my mom miserable, but was it was bullying...Not getting along is not evidence of bullying...or I have three younger sisters who bullied (bullyed sp?) me for a much of my lifetime!

 

My son had a patrol mate he "hated" as much as any 11/12/13/14/15/16/17 year old could "hate". They did not get along and early one they badgered each other without mercy... SM and dads told them to get over it and find an accommodation...(work it out) or he would have them tent together...darn if it didn't work...they still didn't like each other but they knew they had to "work together" cause the three dads were on the same page...we understood that conflicts arise and running from them is usually not an answer.

 

One boy is an eagle the other is close...but the situation was not bullying. Unless there are charactoristics of intimidation just being a pain in the AHH neck does not a bully make. "Ralph" deserves a fair trial...not a "lynching" in the forum "press".

 

nuff said

(still love ya OGE)

anarchist(This message has been edited by anarchist)

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Well kewl, but only in a two deep leadership platonic boy scouty kinda way I am sure

[evmori 11]

We don't have enough information. Something else is going on here.

 

It doesn't seem like any bullying is going on. It seems like "Ralph" has a way with the other Scouts your son doesn't. I mean nothing mean by that statement just an observation.

 

We don't have enough information.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[FScouter 24]

No one that responds to Nlscouter's query in this thread has any more information than anyone else, therefore all opinions have equal value.

 

In my book, a boy whose "mission" is to make life miserable for another boy is a bully. Now there may be another opinion that this kid should be tough and take it like a man. My opinion is that Scouting has no room for bullying and if the SM allows it to continue, he has no place in Scouting either.

[anarchist 10]

FScouter...

Such leaps! your definition of bullying is so expansive as to take ones breath away...NIScouter attributes a "mission" but from what evidence...Did "Ralph" stand up in front of the troop and declare such a mission? ...(probably not)... Did a sorely disappointed 13 year old declare such a movtive (we don't have the info)... Would you like a swing at the answer?...You appear to be in the mood for leaps of faith (No offense)or did a distressed, good guy father assume and characterize the motives without first hand knowledge? (perhaps?)

 

Elections are interesting human (societal)constructs. Movitives and reasons are not always apparent.

 

I am thinking of the youngest boy in my oldest sons patrol...a patrol with a good number of excellently skilled, athletic, intelligent young men who had no doubt they were pretty cool (if not the coolest)guys, who were also somewhat...ahh, boisterous and most of them had been together from tigers on up.

 

One year they elected the youngest and newest in their patrol(a nice boy)a year younger than the rest of the patrol, considerably less mature, and "markedly less cool" than the older boys. I was intrigued as to how or why the older boys had voted for this young man...(when the votes were counted he had ALL the votes...even his opponants...answer? It was a form of punishment...they, the older guys, knew they were a handful to "control" and thought it would be funny to hang an "albatross" around this boys neck for a year...not very pretty but an interesting take on boys and elections.

 

Bullying? I think not, Painting the SM with such a broad brush...unkind, unhelpful, unfriendly..should I go on? Next thing you know someone is going to use the dreaded HAZING word!

Having a dislike for someone, is not bullying! Giving someone a figurative thumping in an election is not bullying! Regardless of the motive...Is the winning side in every troop election a bunch of bullys?

 

Please try to be honest here... (think thats another strong scouting concept isn't it?)...you have no information except your own prejudgement that you can not truely hang a charge of bullying upon, do you?

 

As has been noted in another current thread, we seem to like to take gratuitous pot shots at troops and SMs with just a few lines of information...It would appear that for many of us everything is way too "black or white". 'Course I would like to be so sure of everything...just can't look at my feet of clay and muster up the chutzpa to think that way.

 

and OGE, I love you so much... even in a scouty platonic sort of way we'd still need three deep leadership!

YiS.

anarchist

 

[Gurnee Bruce 10]

The only thing I might add to this discussion is that we should take a closer look at Ralph. He sounds like he might be the guy who really needs our help - the symptoms make me think of boys I've seen who for whatever reason seem to have such a lack in self-confidence that they must act out, often against those they most envy. Is it fear, or a learning disability, or just an inability to work well with others?

 

Hopefully your son will find another meaningful role in the troop, but as stated before, if he'll focus more on the Oath and Law and stay that way then only good decisions will be made.

 

[FScouter 24]

Anarchist I must take umbrage at your entire post. It is totally unfair for you to take a 2-3 sentence description of the problem and add your own inventive details to support a position you want to take.

 

You have no more information about the situation with Ralph than any of the rest of us. Thus your brushing off of the problem is no more valid than my conclusion that a boys actions whose mission is to make life miserable for a fellow Scout constitutes bullying. Surely youre not defending actions intended to make life miserable as being honorable or even acceptable?

 

If the word bullying is too strong for you, how about this. Repeated actions taken by any boy for the purpose of making life miserable for another boy have no place in the Scouting program. That kind of stuff goes on enough at school and elsewhere. When a boy joins Boy Scouts, he shouldnt have to put up with that kind of stuff. And a Scoutmaster that thinks that stuff is OK and does not act to stop it has no place in Scouting either.

 

So, Nlscouter has asked what he should do. Based on the information he presented, I would insist that the Scoutmaster take action to stop Ralph from making life miserable for another boy and to direct him to a new mission.

 

Now, if Nlscouter wants to retract his mission statement and leave the sole issue that of the patrol election, Id have a totally different answer.