The Leaky Pipeline

[Backpacker 11]

BW

 

The same old rhetoric again. Nothing and no one is perfect neither the leaders or the program. The BSA of today is not the same as 20, 50 or even 90 years ago, it constantly needs revisions and has been revised to keep it relevant to the society it serves. Leaders are volunteers who must balance family needs, a job, and a troop of preteen and teenage boys and all of their individual needs. That is a lot to take on and as long as their troop is thriving and they follow the program to the best of their ability then NO ONE has the right to criticize their efforts because they don't do it exactly the way a person interprets the program.

 

So the answer is we have an imperfect system, program and volunteers both, and we do the best we can with what we have. Scouting has survived 90 years with this imperfection and will continue on for another 90. Instead of criticism I think we need to congratulate all scouters for keeping Baden Powell's dream alive for so many years, and giving so many youth a chance to grow into decent and moral adults.(This message has been edited by Backpacker)

[evmori 11]

I actually think the reason we lose kids is because they are over scheduled & Scouting is taking a back seat. We have the same problem with volunteers. The numbers are down there, too. And if the kids are over scheduled the parents are over scheduled.

 

All the training & proper use of the program isn't going to change that. Actually, it will probably add something else to the already over scheduled kids & parents.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[madkins007 10]

Bob White- I guess I'm having another brain blip, but I can't seem to recall or find my using the term 'ladder'. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or cute (for once), just feeling a little befuddled (also not a new sensation!)

 

 

 

As for the 'only those not following the program complaining' bit, I beg to differ. I tried hard in our pack, along with a core of other dedicated leaders, to make the program work as advertised. We varied rarely from the proscribed program and watched our 50+ year old pack go from near death before we got involved, grow to about 35 youth, then dwindle again as we fought to recruit youth and leaders, to overcome being attached to a stagnant troop and a nearly invisible CO, and other local difficulties.

 

We fought district and council level problems of being ignored, being shuffled between three districts as they redrew district lines, having DE's dump kids on our charter that he claimed he personally signed up but we never saw.

 

I was the district training chair and fought to offer the very best training in the council- even when I had to fight the SE against some of his less bright ideas. We struggled to get all of our leaders to training- paying their way and offering babysitting even. I attended every Roundtable, Pow-Wow, camp, etc. to promote training, etc. Ran Pow-Wow sessions and almost single-handedly wrote a Pow-Wow book. Cub Trainer Wood Badge, Philmont Training Center, etc., etc., etc.- a pretty normal resume for many of us Scouters here.

 

We experimented with some things in the pack- the way we ran Pinewood, trying to create our own advancement ceremonies with a touch of consistancy, rethinking B&G, and finding an alternative way to deal with the iron-on Tiger Paws that did not stick well enough (until you learned the tricks)... but our only real change to the actual BSA Cub Scout Program was not checking the blue pants the Cubs wore for a BSA label (they usually used their nearly identical school uniform pants).

 

At last check, the pack (nearly 9 years later) has not had over 15 boys since I left (not trying to take any credit for the earlier growth, but I also do not feel any need to take any blame for the dwindling) and currently has about 7, and the troop has been a 'paper' troop for a few years now.

 

Who to blame? No one specifically, but parts of the problem include:

- Shifting local demographics as the school, church, and neighborhood went from youth-heavy to older and younger couples with less income.

- School, church, and CO (we basically worked with all three about equally) facing their own problems and having little time or energy left to help us (but not shy about asking the pack to do various jobs around the place, which we usually did willingly and cheerfully.)

- District and council support that usually appeared to be more focused on things that brought in money than actually helping units. Even the commish staff was suffering.

- Societal issues that made it increasingly difficult to get new leaders.

- Competition from other programs that may not have been as much fun, but had better parental support and made more demands. (Soccer was a big one- they had 3 practices a week and if you miss one you don't play in the coming game. Parents also shelled out more money for soccer, so it usually won when push came to shove.)...

 

- and a Cub Scout program with several built-in glitches that needlessly contribute to the leakage.

 

 

 

I'm NOT saying our leadership was blameless. I'm just saying that if we tried as hard as we did and could not make it work, then what did we miss?

 

I DO believe the program as written is good, but I also believe it is very hard for the average person in the average unit to impliment in our society as it exists now. Just because it is good now does not mean it cannot be better, stronger, easier to impliment, more effective at producing the desired results.

 

 

 

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

Bob,

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree that the Scouting program is so perfect that it's beyond question, that anything that doesn't work in a unit must be the fault of something other than the program. The program is very good, there's no doubt about that, but to imply that the program is never wrong in any way whatsoever and fits every possible situation that could arise in a Scouting unit anytime and anywhere seems a bit "out there". Or am I reading too much into your comments?

[Bob White 20]

A sign that used to hang over the entrance of our Roundtables said...

 

"Those who say it can't be done should at least stay out the way of those who are doing it!"

 

I'm not saying that the program never changes or won't again in the future.

 

All I'm saying is that you are not going to convince me that those who have never used the program are the ones who are going to know how to improve it.

 

Before you can improve a recipe it would help if you knew how to cook.

 

BW

 

[Scoutndad 10]

Madkins-

the "ladder" reference was from cubbingcarol or the post prior to your 3 volume posting at the beginning of this thread in which I agreed with your post...

and it was my reference to your ladder, not BW's...

Scoutndad

[Bob White 20]

When you say "we do the best we can"

just which 'We" do you refer to. The adult leaders who make the effort to follow the program as best they can, or the adults who make the decision not to follow the program. When you say "we" who exactly do you mean?

 

I would agree that the former group is doing the best they can and it shows in the units they serve. But the latter group....you cannot convince me that they do their "best". No, they do what suits them, and it shows in the unit they are supposaed to be serving.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori 11]

I'm not saying that the program never changes or won't again in the future.

 

But you don't think the program is ever at fault. You have expressed across many threads the problem is always the volunteer leaders. Never the program or the BSA in general.

 

Not very realistic.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Prairie_Scouter 10]

Bob,

>>All I'm saying is that you are not going to convince me that those who have never used the program are the ones who are going to know how to improve it. .

 

Well, that I can agree with 100% (the part about those who have never used the programs not being the ones that are going to know how to improve it...)

 

[madkins007 10]

Scoutndad- thanks! BW made a comment about a ladder as well and I just was not sure where it came from. Suddenly there were all these ladders surrounding me! I wasn't sure which way to turn, I... I... I'm OK now. Whew!

[Bob White 20]

"But you don't think the program is ever at fault. You have expressed across many threads the problem is always the volunteer leaders. Never the program or the BSA in general.

 

Not very realistic."

 

Of all people to take a stance like that Ed, why you?

 

I don't hink the program ia at fault because I've been a troop and pack leader for quite a while and I had one bad year, my first. Then I learned the program and it worked, it worked everytime, it never stopped working. I taught others how it worked and the ones that chose to follow it had the same results I had. So its not me it's the program. Look at how often Eamonn and I are on exactly the same strategy on our replies, it's because we both know, understand and use the scouting methods, We are not the only ones.

 

I have never been in a crowd of scouters so far removed from the actual program as the things I read from you and a number of other non-believers on this forum. It's not just Eamonn, F-scouter gets it, CNY gets it, OGE gets it. It's not me they are agreeing with, it's the scouting program.

 

I don't think the scouting program is wrong because I see it work. Then I see leaders who bad mouth it, who want to change it, want to pick and choose what methods to support, and in their wake they leave FORMER scouts, boys who quit to soon. I don't blame all leaders. I balame the ones who never learned or who learned but never followed. They keep youth out of scouting, they injure youth, they discourage good volunteers.

 

You yourself wrote that you expect to lose 50% of your new scouts each year. And look what happpened to "your troop". You made good on your prediction. When you don't follow the program kids leave.

 

Oh you can blame whatever outside activity you want, but the bottom line is, if the troop program was better than what they left to go do, they would never have left.

 

I make no apologies for folowing the scouting program, I agreed to be a scout leader, I promised to follow the program, and I kept my promise. Complain all you want you don't hurt me and you don't hurt the scouts I serve...this year. But down the road the scouts who used to be in "Your Troop" and troops like it, will discourage their children and their grandchildren because they will always remember why they QUIT the scouting program.

 

Don't try to scold me for following the scouting program Ed, that's what we are supposed to be doing.

 

 

 

 

[GopherJudy 10]

I think that my son's den did fine in the Webelos to Boy Scout transition. My son started in Cub Scouts as a Bear in 3rd grade & he enjoyed it, started out with 14 boys & ended up with 4 finishing because the boys & parents were told that they had to actually earn their Bear badge & that is wasn't going to be just handed out to them. Apparantly, when they were Wolves not all of them actually did the requirements & earned the Wolf badge, different Den Leader & Cubmaster at that time I believe. I don't recall that many "crafty" achievements. The boys made centerpieces for the B&G dinners as Bears & Webelos I & II; they've made Indian games as Bears & they made tepees out of felt & dowels & used markers to decorate them & that's all the comes to my forgetful mind! When 4th grade started the boys (3 were in the den at this point) went on their 1st camping trip as Webelos I's & they had a great time! The Den Leader even took them on a "Bear Hunt", which is funny because there aren't any bears on Long Island except for Cub Scouts! On our second time of new cub registration, the 1st time the school was closed due to inclement weather, we added 4 more boys to the den bringing the total up to 7. One dropped out because his mom was having medical issues & wasn't able to bring him to the meetings & I think other issues were involved to. The boys worked on their activity badges & not all of the boys were there for all of the badges so they all didn't get the same amount. They had fun with doing experiments for Scientist, collecting rocks for Geologist, we had an ambulance company come to a den meeting & a pack night for Readyman. We had several Boy Scouts come to Pack Night & show all of the dens how to set up tents & to have a safe campsite. After that, each den had to set up a tent. We did outside activities for the badges - go to a park to identify trees, poisonout plants, learn about Leave No Trace, etc.; played different sports for Sportsman, went camping 2 more times, went to NJ for an 8 mile hike (seemed like forever for me!) but I made it up the mountain! Went to Webelos Woods where the boys learned a variety of skills that they'll use in Boy Scouts. Went to Liberty Science Center in NJ, 2 of the boys, my son included, went upstate to Windham & learned how to ski, our DL is the MBC for skiing so there were Boy Scouts there too. The boys also went overnight to Battleship Cove in Fall River, MA & had a great time & we slept on the destroyer USS Kennedy ( I hope that I have the name correct!)

 

But, besides keeping the boys active, we did have a Den Chief for the almost 2 years they were Webelos. He did have to get spoken to a few times but he shaped up & he did work out. His troop invited us to quite a few Boy Scout activites, which we went to, the last one being ice skating in February. The boys have been to the Klondike Camporee & watched the Boy Scouts pull the sleds on the obstacle course & even got to try pulling the sleds themselves! They found it was a difficult job! We were lucky in that there was snow on the ground too for that!

 

The boys did visit 3 troops in the area & the boys in each of the troops went over with the Webelos II's the different things they'll learn in Boy Scouts; they had little stations set up. My son said he picked the troop he did (our brother troop) because he had a great time & he understood what was going on. Now, he liked all of the SM's & the troops all had stations & showed the boys things BUT the troop he picked the SM also talked to the 2 groups of Webelos II's (each from a different pack)after they went through all of the stations with the Boy Scouts & explained the program to the boys & asked them if they had any questions. Now the SM's of the other 2 troops didn't talk to the Webelos at all & I think that made a difference. Mark said he didn't know how things worked in the other troops, just the troop where the SM talked to the boys. I told him that they work the same way.

 

Not all 7 boys earned the same amount of Webelos Activity Badges & belt loops & pins. Some of the boys weren't there for all of the activities or den meetings & 1 of the boy re-joined as a Webelos II (he left as a Bear due to family problems). There were 4 boys who did almost everything & those same 4 earned all 20 Webelos Activity Badges & received the patch for that. Not one of the boys thought they knew everything & didn't need to continue on to Boy Scouts. They looked forward to Boy Scouts to learn more & to be more responsible (not all of them mind you!) There were 2 boys who thought almost everything was a joke & they are the same in school. They are cousins & live 2 houses away from each other. Also, some of the boys don't have the same work ethic.

 

All 7 of the boys who earned their AOL & crossed over to Boy Scouts on March 20th & attended their 1st troop meeting on March 22nd are still in Scouts. There were 2 that I didn't think would cross over but they did. If they stay in scouting, I'll be surprised & it has nothing to do with Scouting, it has to do with them & their attitude towards things - that everything is a joke. I know they're children & just finished 5th grade but there's a time for fooling around & nonsense & a time to listen & learn. They do the same in school too! They've been on 2 overnight campouts, except my son because he wound up getting sick the night before; they've been on a charter boat & gone fishing. They worked on their Tenderfoot rank & 4 of them received that (the same 4 boys who earned all 20 Webelos Activity Badges), they've earned the fishing merit badge (the same 4 boys) plus boys from different patrols, they went fishing for a few hours at a local park. They were lucky enough to see one of the older boys in the troop receive his Eagle rank & each of the boys had a small part in the ceremony. The older scouts have shown the new scouts different skills like knot tying, flag folding & watching them do the exercises for Tenderfoot & counting what they've done.

 

I think a lot of is has to do with what the boys are doing & learning, have a variety of different activities & when they get invited to Boy Scout activities, to go & experience it & to try & go to as many as possible. Also, a lot has to do with the boy & his family; they might have problems at home which would prevent him from attending den meetings or other activities. I agree with Ed on the fact that some children are "over-scheduled" & I'm sure that with most parents, if it's a conflict with sports & scouts that the parent will tell the child that he has to miss scouts & go do the sports instead. Another thing is work ethic & children can have a work ethic! My son's 5th grade class had gone into the city (New York City) to see "Beauty & the Beast" & several of the boys had finished quite a few of the requirements for Tenderfoot at their last troop meeting before the trip. One of the boys told another boy, who missed that last meeting, that he only has a few things left & he'll finish Tenderfoot. The other boy (one who of the 2 cousins that I didn't think would continue on to Boy Scouts) said to him "You actually did work at a troop meeting?" & the other boys said, "Yes, I'm almost done with my Tenderfoot!" & the other boy said again, "You actually did work at a troop meeting, why?". So you can see the attitude of this boy, why bother doing any of the work & learn anything! That is rather sad though. This has nothing to do with Scouts, it has to do with the individual boy himself.

 

OK, I hope that I haven't rambled too much & that I've made some sense! BTW, my son Mark wants to be Den Chief when he's old enough!

 

Judy

[evmori 11]

I have never posted the volunteers weren't at fault. It just isn't always their fault.

 

The BSA isn't perfect like some think. If it was, why have changes been made & things removed? When a unit starts falling apart, every aspect needs to be looked at. Just blaming it on the volunteers not delivering the program is not always the reason.

 

And I don't remember posting we expect to lose 50% of our new Scouts each year. I know last year we didn't.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White 20]

The BSA changes as scouts and resources change, not because it was broken and needs to be fixed, it adapts to always stay as good as it is.

 

We had a lengthy thread about that 50% comment Ed I'm surprised you don't recall it.

 

Some kids are over-scheduled becasue they are searching for a program that fulfills their needs, a purpose that the BSA is specifically designed to do when delivered well.

 

If you lose scouts to other stuff it's because they found what they needed elesewhere, more fun, more adventure, more challenge, more friends. If kids have to go outside of scouting to find those things then you are doing it wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

[evmori 11]

If you lose scouts to other stuff it's because they found what they needed elesewhere, more fun, more adventure, more challenge, more friends. If kids have to go outside of scouting to find those things then you are doing it wrong.

 

No. Just because kids go outside Scouting doesn't mean I or anyone else is doing it wrong. If can mean many things. Scouting isn't for every boy.

 

Maybe all their friends play basketball. So they play basketball instead of Scouting.

 

Maybe they don't like the outdoors.

 

Maybe they find Nintendo more fun than Scouting.

 

Maybe they think chess is more challenging than Scouting.

 

A blanket statement "If kids have to go outside of scouting to find those things then you are doing it wrong" is wrong.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10