Jump to content

Answer to Judo / Karate Question

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 34
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I was told by a member of our Council elites that Karate and Tae-Kwon-do are offensive martial arts where as Judo and Aikido are defensive. BSA frowns upon activities that are offensive in nature. I was inquiring about it because my son wanted to know why his Tae-kwon-do black belt doesn't earn him a belt loop. Tai Chi ... soft art? Yes ... in movement only!



Link to post
Share on other sites

In answer to this inquiry:


"I was inquiring about it because my son wanted to know why his Tae-kwon-do black belt doesn't earn him a belt loop."


Tell your son that I think it's because the belt loop won't fit on teh black belt! hee-hee :)



Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, I just had to say as well, Anyone that thinks Judo is a defensive art, has never participated in a Judo match.


Unlike TKD, Aikido, Godoryu / Gojoryu etc, You have a much better chance of scoring and winning being the aggressor in Judo.


Aikido is definately a reactionary MA form where your opponents movement is your best weapon.


But in a typical Judo Match, You pop in, try to throw, your opponent counters, and if you are good, you anticipate the counter before the person does it, adjust as they start it, and execute a counter throw based on his counter before he even finishes his counter........


Got to love that eh? :-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is interesting to look at the requirements of Sports merit badge for the allowed activities:


"3) Take part for one full season as a member of an organized team in ONE of the following sports: baseball, basketball, bowling, cross-country, diving, fencing, field hockey, football, golf, gymnastics, ice hockey, lacrosse, rugby, skating (ice or roller), soccer, softball, swimming, team handball, tennis, track and field, volleyball, water polo, or wrestling (or any other recognized team sport approved in advance by your counselor, except boxing and karate).


4) Take part in ONE of the following sports on a competitive basis in two organized meets or tournaments: archery, badminton, bait or fly casting, bowling, canoeing, cycling, diving, fencing, fishing, golf, gymnastics, handball, horsemanship, horseshoes, judo, orienteering, paddleball, rifle or shotgun shooting, sailing, skating (ice or roller), skiing, swimming, table tennis, tennis, track and field, water-skiing, or wrestling (or any other recognized sport approved in advance by your counselor, except boxing and karate)."


So it appears not to matter what the amount of actual body contact is with football, judo and wrestling on the list. But boxing and karate are specifically excluded. Whether offensive or defensive, hard or soft, seems to me the punching and kicking contact is what BSA is excluding.


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the Guide to Safe Scouting (GSS) there is no argument specifically against Tae-Kwon-Do. It is just lumped into the "karate" type of martial arts activities along with boxing. The only mention in the GSS restricted activity list is:


"Boxing, karate, and related martial artsexcept judo, aikido, and Tai Chiare not authorized activities."


That is why I brought up the "allowed activities" from Sports merit badge because it gives a much more complete picture of the issue... which I think is centered on the punching and kicking. Of course there can be plenty of nasty punching and kicking in those approved sports, but there the ref yells "foul" before they continue the game.


I have competed in many karate tournaments in the last 10 years and there are strictly enforced rules against any head/face punching/kicking contact for anyone under age 21, but I guess that is not widely known and doesn't make much difference in the image of karate as a safe sport. In all those years any injuries I got were minor and usually due to some lack of preparation on my part, insufficient stretching, repetitive over-use muscle strain, etc. By comparison high school age football players routinely get concussions playing that game, but then they wear a helmet so it looks like they are ready for it.


I still think it is just the over-simplified reasoning that there is an emphasis on punching and kicking that puts karate and boxing on the no-no list.(This message has been edited by KA6BSA)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 9 months later...

What is interesting to me is that according to the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission Estimates for Sports Injuries 1998, the number of injuries from martial arts (23,018) was roughly the same as the number of injuries from bowling (23,130). (It really smarts when you drop that ball on your foot.)


And I kid you not, bleachers (falling off of them?) caused almost as many injuries (19,161) as martial arts.


Horseback riding (64,692) and dancing (38,427) caused more injuries than martial arts. (Now, you can't tell me there are more people doing horseback riding than martial arts.)


Also, there were far more injuries from basketball (631,186) and bicycles (577,621). Both also caused more injuries than football (355,247). (Due to less people playing football?)


If you don't believe these numbers, check it out for yourself:


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rather than argue who has the softer or more aggressive form of martial arts, IMHO fleetfootedfox has the most relevant argument and BSA needs to reconsider their stance (no martial arts pun intended).

Although I shy away from the softer arts (I prefer full contact-you learn more quickly), I have studied Judo and Aikido and can tell you that they are just as painful as a good pop in the head at a TKD tournament.

However, after just having watched my WebeII's last soccer match, I may have to also think that youth soccer may be characterized as a "hard" art...and I see rugby was mentioned as well-anyone here been part of a scrum...

I think that we need to have BSA reconsider martial arts classifications for all of the reasons fleetfooted cited.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Fewer incidents does not necessarily mean a safer activitiy. More important than the raw injury incident totals is the injury rate. If more people ride bicycles than do hang gliding, one would expect higher numbers for bicycles even if the injury rate for hang gliding is much higher.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The quality of the activity needs to be investigated more than the "stereotype" of the activity but this still does not give subject proof.


In this forum, there are separate views on one form v another so what other standard would you have BSA investigate in order to permit other forms of martial arts?


Qualitative or Quantitative?


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also noted the reference to rugby and I well-remember way back, helping my team to eat our dead. ;) Tasty too!

Regarding judo (jiu jitsu?), I note that one of the early (and most successful) champions of the ultimate fighting championship was Royce Gracie of the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy (Brazil). Those were often brutal fights.


Anyway, I'm afraid this is going to go the way of discussions of the prohibition of laser tag. We're going to agree to disagree on a lot of these things. And I doubt we'll ever fully fathom the depth of BSA thought in these decisions.

Link to post
Share on other sites

well said packsaddle...


watching the old ufc matches was extremely brutal but a strong testament to "grappling" arts or as we say in the BSA - "soft" arts - yeouch!


BTW..i enjoyed the uncleguinea's beltloop on the black belt remark...you "out did" the Mr Myogi (sp?)response from the Karate Kid's question "What kind of belt do you have?" -

Link to post
Share on other sites

Without trying to make glue (by beating a dead horse)


So who makes the determinantion that TKD will be lumped together with Karate?


I understand the philosophy behind the difference between Judo and karatedo and lumping Taekwondo with Karate due to the methods of weapon delivery (kicking and punching).


Wrestling and Judo, all use leverage and an opponent's momentum against him.


(I am getting somewhere here)


So, does that mean that we can lump Yudo with Judo, Hapkido with Aikido and Juijitsu? Gungfu with TAichi? Paqua?


What about leaving out the low styles of Bando but including their high styles (soft looking kata and philosophy much like TaiChi)?


Is it a judgement call for the Merit Badge Counselor?


BTW, I have a brown belt, black belt, the black one is basketweave and the brown one I wear everyday because it matches my shoes.


My fav Mr. Myagi quote? "Ah Daniel san, best block is not to be there".



Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Create New...