Need a Resource or Guidance

[purcelce 11]

I've played ultimate Frisbee and touch football several times with the youth. Heck many times they have dragged me out of my chair to play.

 

Best UF game was at summer camp this past year. I was the Aquatics Director.

One of the troops that I work with had challenged the staff to a friendly game of UF.

Staff was pumped that they would defeat the poor troop with younger scouts and old adults. I worked a little deal with the Troop.

 

We had about two days of friendly "trash talking" between the T6 and the staff. I was the one of the ring leaders on busting the chops of the adult leaders in T6 saying that we would need the camp nurse, Geritol and other senior citizen paraphernalia to help out these older gentlemen.

 

One of the staff members came up with this idea.

 

On the day of the big event, I wore a superman cape and my Class A's. The staff carried me out on their shoulders and we were getting pumped and letting T6 that they were going down. The ref was the SM of T6 and I started bumping him like a baseball manager giving an umpire a bad time for a rotten call.

After a few words with the Ref, I turned to the staff and yelled, "I've had to put up with you guys for three weeks and I've had it up to here." I tore off my cape and uniform shirt. The Tee shirt that I had on was a T6 shirt, and I defected to the poor Troop's team. The youth in T6 started clapping and their spirits really sored as the staff looked dumbfounded.

 

The game started and I was playing for T6. We had a blast.

The staff was mad, but T6 loved me.

 

 

[FScouter 24]

TySim: "SM and CC called all leaders and adults into a private meeting to discuss youth protection." "Our CC said that [touch football] was inappropriate and I could not participate."

 

Discussing YP is not a bad thing. But extending the "touching" issue to include touch football is ridiculous. Touching a Scout is not forbidden. You might suggest that all your adult leaders take the Youth Protection Guidelines training together as a group. The video talks about "inappropriate touching" as it relates to child sexual abuse. After the training, ask yourselves as a group if touch football falls into the same category.

 

[Eamonn 61]

We had the misfortune to have a Council Commissioner in with us when we attended the Commissioner Service Conference at Philmont, this Lady wanted to make everything a youth protection issue. I am pro Youth Protection and 100% for the G2SS. Those who choose to venture outside the guidelines are taking needless risks.

Looking back at some of the things that I did almost 30 years ago (Mainly roughnecking with the Scouts in the swimming pool) I clearly see that what I was doing was placing me in situations that today would not be acceptable.

I have to think that with or without any of the rule books that we as adults need to use good old common sense. While some rough games have long been a part of Scouts and Scouting, we the adults need to be ready to step in and calm things down or even stop the activity or game if it is getting out of hand.

My days of roughnecking are about over, not because I'm worried about the harm I might cause, but because some of my parts are no longer up to it!!

Anyone who intentionally hurts a Scout or youth member really has no place in Scouting. The game that starts out as a friendly game (No matter what the game is.)and then becomes "I'm going to get him!!" Needs to be halted. Some adults can manage being beaten at some activity by a young Lad, sad to say some adults don't manage it very well and allow their competitiveness to kick in and get the better of them. I had an ASM, who was a lot older than I was he was 41 when he joined the troop, I was in my twenties. Pete was a super nice guy but he was one of those people who have to win. He could turn a friendly game of camp cricket into a grudge match!! I would hate to see him play Rugby with Scouts.

I by nature am not a "Touchy,feely" Sort of person. I like my space, however there have been times and I'm sure that there will be times when I have put my arm around a Lad to console him, I have and will continue to give a Lad a pat on the shoulder. I miss the days of roughnecking in the pool with 20 or 30 Lads trying to drown me!! Not only because it isn't such a clever thing to do, but also knowing that I'm no longer up to it makes me feel old.

Eamonn.

[TySim 10]

Just a quick update for everyone. I presented some of the things discussed here, along with several websites where troops put up results of their annual "Turkey Bowl" flag football game between scouts and scouters etc.. to my CC and asked him to clarify this at the District Round Table last night.

He agree to get clarification. Hopefully I should know something today.

 

[SemperParatus 1]

TySim,

 

So any news from your CC?

[TySim 10]

Still nothing yet. We have a meeting tomorrow night. I am guessing he will say something there one way or the other.

 

[TySim 10]

Finally I know where this is coming from....

 

It seems that the DE has decided that ANY physical contact between the adults and the youths is prohibited by the youth protection policies.

 

Funny, I re-read all of them, re-took the test (and aced it) and I can not find that anywhere....

 

However, I did make some headway.

 

The issue seems to be that "Touch Football" involves contact where as "Flag Football" does not.

 

Therefore, if I go buy a set of Flags for the troop, there should not be any objection......

 

We shall see how that goes.....

[SemperParatus 1]

I guess the larger question is why would your unit leadership (the CC) abide by a DE pronouncement that is not supportable.

 

The whole flag vs. touch thing is bogus (but I am sure you know that). In flag football there is a greater chance of touching an inappropriate area while reaching for a flag.

[TySim 10]

I am not sure on the CC / DE thing. The CC deferred the conversation until later. I am assuming he wants to do more research.

Meanwhile, I am slowly piling up information for him.

 

This comes indirectly from the BSA Youth protection as adapted by the White Stag Leadership program.

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

Limit physical contact. While physical contact between an adult and a youth is not absolutely prohibited, as in congratulating a youth for an accomplishment, adults must be very alert to the appropriateness of any physical contact. It is possible that it may be experienced by the youth or seen by others as inappropriate. For example, as in most social situations, you should avoid bear hugs and limit yourself to "shoulder-to-shoulder" hugs, maintaining space between your bodies.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

Their interpretation seems to be the same as most scouters I know, including a former DE.

 

 

[dsteele 20]

Adapted? Interesting.

 

Unc.

[eagle90 125]

Are these people insane? There is just as much physical contact in flag football as there is in touch. Have they never heard of blocking? Again, a situation of someone taking things WAAAY

to far....

 

What is the White Stag leadership thing?(This message has been edited by eagle90)

[FScouter 24]

White Stag is not a BSA program. Anything you read there may or may not have anything to do with BSA policy. If you want to know about BSA, don't look at YMCA or Girl Scouts programs either.

[TySim 10]

FScouter, I am aware that the White Stag Leadership is Not BSA. However, the policies they instituted came with help from the BSA and their YP guidelines.

Since BSA members are encouraged to participate in White Stag, and the Two organizations have common roots (White Stag originated as a JLT course in Monterey Bay Area Council, and is the basis for BSA's Philmont and Wood Badge courses) leads me to believe that if they interpret it that way, then more than likely it is common interpretation (As shown by the responses here as well.)

 

BSA does not state anywhere that you can not "touch" a scout. Even in their Scoutmaster training film, they show the SM touching a scout (he puts his arm around the SPL's shoulder and says something like "let's discuss some ways to work on this.")

 

 

[Eagledad 2777]

Hi All

 

My opinion is your CC is the main problem. What is the DE going to do? The White Stag paragraph is intended to protect the adult incase physical contact has some appearance of being inappropriate. Football has certain boundaries where contact is appropriate, even in touch football.

 

But even with that, who cares! Because using White Stag to enforce a BSA policy is a stretch and not official. Your unit adults need to use and interpret the G2SS because that is what the BSA expects you to use. I love the White Stag program but the program is being used out of context here with your Troop. Most leaders have never even heard of White Stag.

 

Personally I would tell the DE, and the Council if you like, that your unit has lost some trust in this DE and you will look at future interpretations from him with some skepticism. DE s arent always right and they dont always represent the Council or BSA in the best manner. Our District has encouraged the council to move more than one DE on to the next District.

 

Your CC is the person who needs to be convinced. Then you guys can get back to the fun of this Scouting Stuff.

 

Have a great day.

 

Barry

 

[TySim 10]

EagleDad,

I think you misinterpret my purpose for including the White Stag reference.

It was not to suggest that that is policy because they say so. Nor have I mentioned that to the CC btw.

I simply pointed it out because here is a program that collaborated with BSA on incorporating their Youth Protection Policy so that White Stag could be recognized as being BSA compliant.

The interpretation they made on the policy is the same as the one I tend to believe is correct.

BSA does not have listed, posted, or available anywhere, clarification on this point one way or another.

When that happens in any policy debate, the next appropiate step (as was shown by the court system in the recent lawsuit here in NJ) is to apply what a reasonable person would interpret. In order for that to be accomplished, one must look at all available interpretations available. Hence the reference to White Stag, which is as close to coming from BSA as possible without a direct BSA statement, since BSA helped White Stag craft the policy.

 

BSA also helped BPSA (I believe that is them) develop their policy as well. Since they are now covered under "Boy Scouts" and their statement goes something like, "No Inappropiate Physical Contact", it again leads to the conclusion that a reasonable intrepretation is that there is no prohibition on Physical Contact.

 

All of this I have discovered though, is rendered pointless because the CC has the power to implement (correctly or not) policies that Expand on the BSA policies (But not contract)

 

Therefore if the CC says Our troop allows no physical contact, then that is that.

 

My job is to beat him over the head I guess until such time as he sees the light :-P (Figuratively speaking of course.)