It's finally come to this

[KublaiKen 192]

3 hours ago, scoutldr said:

Doesn't that work both ways?  And should I no longer agree to wear the big sombrero as they sing "Feliz Cumpleanos" to me at my local Mexican restaurant?  

Well, I think that by definition cultural appropriation doesn't work both ways.

[qwazse 4342]

So, to avoid any and all sense of indigenous appropriation, should the name be changed to Order of the Flintlock?

[Eagle94-A1 2685]

5 minutes ago, qwazse said:

So, to avoid any and all sense of indigenous appropriation, should the name be changed to Order of the Flintlock?

How about Corps of Discovery? 🤣

[InquisitiveScouter 1653]

21 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

How about Corps of Discovery? 🤣

You jest, but that isn't all that bad...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_and_Clark_Expedition

[InquisitiveScouter 1653]

34 minutes ago, qwazse said:

So, to avoid any and all sense of indigenous appropriation, should the name be changed to Order of the Flintlock?

Peoples all over the world have used arrows and archers as a symbol.

English Longbowmen (Robin Hood)  (William Tell actually used a crossbow, and he was Swiss)

Odysseus (Ulysses)

etc. etc.

 

https://www.worldarchery.sport/news/175753/archery-and-gods-kings-myths-and-legends

 

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[Eagle94-A1 2685]

15 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

You jest, but that isn't all that bad...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_and_Clark_Expedition

I jest because  Corps of Discovery was  the Venturing Honor Society volunteers created because they could not join the OA. Order of the Golden Dragon was the Sea Scout equivalent.

[HashTagScouts 435]

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

The first ones were in black robes.

Here's a pic from the birth of my home lodge:

 

You could easily ditch the headdresses.  And you do not need a fictional story of Native Americans to promulgate ideas about Brotherhood, Cheerfulness, and Service.

You could easily find stories to demonstrate these during the Colonial period, or during the American Revolution, or the westward expansion, etc.  It should not be offensive to find and tell a story from some native tribes to demonstrate these principles, either.  They need not be from your area particularly, since you are ditching the wearing of clothing to mimic.

Or, if a lodge wanted to incorporate stories from their local first peoples, there's plenty... 574 recognized tribes in the US.

https://www.usa.gov/tribes

P.S.  Gotta love the ties!!

P.P.S.  Also see https://oa-bsa.org/history/first-ceremony

The current options for attire aside from regalia is either field uniform or to wear all black, and the all black is what our youth have chosen if regalia is taken away. We did one ceremony this year with the ceremonialists in all black.

IMO the current Ordeal and Brotherhood ceremony texts don't need significant change- I think if you just dropped trying to associate the text to the Lenni Lenape, you're just representing a generic legend and legends are by nature not factual historical recitations. 

The Order itself can endure in a manner that Goodman and Edson envisioned. It's not very different to me from changing from the military type uniform of yesteryear to the uniform of today. We adapted, we survived. It's still the broader issue of whether the BSA itself can do the same. 

[HashTagScouts 435]

20 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Wow, with friends like this, who needs enemies. I’ve been active in scouting one way or another for almost 60:. In all those years, I have never seen AO show disrespect to the American Indian/idigenous/Native American culture. In fact OAs actions are typically respectful with the intention of showing honor. Now if the culture has changed how it looks at such things, fine, we change to continue showing respect. But done disparage the OA for living the scout law in their efforts.
 

On the other hand, I’m not sure OA can get back to the honor and respect that the organization once had because our culture doesn’t like individualism that sets piers apart. OA is/was an honor program that recognized scouts who set themselves apart as outdoorsmen and servants. They used to be the go to experts of camping skills. And, they usually were humble in their service to others. The organization used to require a scout prove discipline and maturity of camping and serving. Now many troops want all their scout to get elected in to the organization no matter their experience or maturity. Seems there is no real desire for a true honor program in the BSA.

Barry

To me, if you simply concede ground then you are letting the Order become the very thing you don't want. My son certainly had some opinions, and still does, on some of the youth that were in the Lodge with him. He's rolled his eyes a few times on who was elected as officers or for Vigil. But, he considered it to be motivation to do better himself. Part of the outside motivation for him was his former SM who very much was a "poo poo on the OA and everything else to do with Council" individual who also never was willing to take any constructive feedback from my son as SPL or any other previous SPL about their troop. The SM thought he had it all figured out, and the problem was never with him but everyone else. I don't disagree with your POV on a problem we face, just that the SM on the other side that is just bumping their youth through likely feels they are doing everything right, it's everyone else that is the problem. If we can't ever sit at a table and discuss things, or just aren't willing to even show up at the table, then we reap what we sow. 

[Mrjeff 248]

On 1/11/2023 at 11:30 AM, fred8033 said:

I'm just an OA member embarrassed by my organizations practices.  Is it a huge embarrassment?  No.  My embarrassment is more about not wanting to be associated with the practice.

I should be proud of everything about OA.  It's the whole point.  OA is an honor society.  It's about service and fellowship.  Instead, OA has as major area that I'm embarrassed to talk about.  

 

https://ictnews.org/news/order-of-the-arrow-is-a-secret-scout-society-in-the-spirit-of-the-lenni-lenape-a-lenape-leader-disagrees

Lenni Lenape elder and tribal pastor John Norwood responded to Indian Country Today in an email, that his view on the Order of the Arrow’s adherence to said traditions and practices are plainly “not authentic.”

“It is my understanding that the original ‘lore and ceremony’ of the Boy Scouts of America, Order of the Arrow was allegedly based upon what was claimed to be Lenape culture, although I am uncertain as to whether that remains true, Norwood wrote in an email. 

 

The order was “based upon a version of the old Northern Unami dialect of Lenape, called ‘Mission Lenape,’ which was probably gleaned from Moravian missionary documents going back to the 18th and early 19th centuries.

“The BSA/OA's use of Native dress and ceremony originated around the time that other non-Native organizations adopted Native dress, lore, and ceremony for their usage, ironically during a period in history when many Natives were discouraged from embracing our own tribal culture and identity and when government and social forces sought to terminate tribes. Often such groups with a history of using Native dress, lore, and ceremonies will claim that permission was granted by some “Indian” at some point in the past. Whether or not this is true is immaterial. No single individual tribal person has the authority to place the cultural knowledge and property rights of a tribal nation into the public domain.”

 

Norwood said that no matter the intentions, the wearing of Native dress by non-Native people is appropriation.

"While I respect each tribe’s right to its own perspective on the issue, I believe that no matter the sincerity of the participants, the use of Native dress and ceremonies (even when accurately portrayed) by non-Natives is a misappropriation of our culture. I appreciate the effort to consult with area tribes, as expressed in the OA manual. However, this should be done in order to gain an understanding of, and appreciation for, regional tribal heritage, not in order to mimic it." 

 

"The problem with gaining permission to use tribal dress and ceremony from regional tribes is that the history of the United States includes the disruption and displacement of tribes to the extent that a region may not contain all of its original indigenous tribes, which would still have a claim to the cultural heritage being appropriated. Moreover, even if one generation of an authentic tribe granted such permission, another generation would still have the right to withdraw such permission. Also, there are some non-historic cultural enthusiast groups that illegitimately claim tribal identity and authority, which would fraudulently grant such permission to those seeking their blessing to “play Indian.”

 

Norwood says using a drum for "Native" song created by non-Native people is also appropriating culture.

"The songs and ceremonies and regalia of our people belong to our people. They represent a heritage that has passed from one generation to the next during centuries of persecution. Some elements of regalia or songs or ceremonies are particular to a clan or family or society within a tribe and require some personal achievement and/or special permission in order to gain the right of use, even for tribal people."

This is really awsome and displays just how easy it is to do a Google search and cut/paste one article to substantiate your opinion, for which you are completly entitled.  However; it does not negate the fact that I have never met a First Nation citizen who has any negative thoughts or issues with our current Order of the Arrow practices or customs.

[Mrjeff 248]

On 1/11/2023 at 11:30 AM, fred8033 said:

I'm just an OA member embarrassed by my organizations practices.  Is it a huge embarrassment?  No.  My embarrassment is more about not wanting to be associated with the practice.

I should be proud of everything about OA.  It's the whole point.  OA is an honor society.  It's about service and fellowship.  Instead, OA has as major area that I'm embarrassed to talk about.  

 

https://ictnews.org/news/order-of-the-arrow-is-a-secret-scout-society-in-the-spirit-of-the-lenni-lenape-a-lenape-leader-disagrees

Lenni Lenape elder and tribal pastor John Norwood responded to Indian Country Today in an email, that his view on the Order of the Arrow’s adherence to said traditions and practices are plainly “not authentic.”

“It is my understanding that the original ‘lore and ceremony’ of the Boy Scouts of America, Order of the Arrow was allegedly based upon what was claimed to be Lenape culture, although I am uncertain as to whether that remains true, Norwood wrote in an email. 

 

The order was “based upon a version of the old Northern Unami dialect of Lenape, called ‘Mission Lenape,’ which was probably gleaned from Moravian missionary documents going back to the 18th and early 19th centuries.

“The BSA/OA's use of Native dress and ceremony originated around the time that other non-Native organizations adopted Native dress, lore, and ceremony for their usage, ironically during a period in history when many Natives were discouraged from embracing our own tribal culture and identity and when government and social forces sought to terminate tribes. Often such groups with a history of using Native dress, lore, and ceremonies will claim that permission was granted by some “Indian” at some point in the past. Whether or not this is true is immaterial. No single individual tribal person has the authority to place the cultural knowledge and property rights of a tribal nation into the public domain.”

 

Norwood said that no matter the intentions, the wearing of Native dress by non-Native people is appropriation.

"While I respect each tribe’s right to its own perspective on the issue, I believe that no matter the sincerity of the participants, the use of Native dress and ceremonies (even when accurately portrayed) by non-Natives is a misappropriation of our culture. I appreciate the effort to consult with area tribes, as expressed in the OA manual. However, this should be done in order to gain an understanding of, and appreciation for, regional tribal heritage, not in order to mimic it." 

 

"The problem with gaining permission to use tribal dress and ceremony from regional tribes is that the history of the United States includes the disruption and displacement of tribes to the extent that a region may not contain all of its original indigenous tribes, which would still have a claim to the cultural heritage being appropriated. Moreover, even if one generation of an authentic tribe granted such permission, another generation would still have the right to withdraw such permission. Also, there are some non-historic cultural enthusiast groups that illegitimately claim tribal identity and authority, which would fraudulently grant such permission to those seeking their blessing to “play Indian.”

 

Norwood says using a drum for "Native" song created by non-Native people is also appropriating culture.

"The songs and ceremonies and regalia of our people belong to our people. They represent a heritage that has passed from one generation to the next during centuries of persecution. Some elements of regalia or songs or ceremonies are particular to a clan or family or society within a tribe and require some personal achievement and/or special permission in order to gain the right of use, even for tribal people."

This is really awsome and displays just how easy it is to do a Google search and cut/paste one article to substantiate your opinion, for which you are completly entitled.  However; it does not negate the fact that I have never met a First Nation citizen who has any negative thoughts or issues with our current Order of the Arrow practices or customs.

[Mrjeff 248]

I guess that my major concerns are these.  The OA started out as a way to honor a few outstanding camp staff members.  It then became a society of Scout Honor Campers and then the Scouting National Honor Society, all the while focused on service and camp promotions.  The trappings and ceremonial movement are very close to those of another ancient and respected organization and my fellow travelers know exactly what I am talking about.  If those specific things were removed there would be no Order of the Arrow.  Youth leadership is supposed to be the groundwork of the OA but the many decisions effecting the order are influenced by adults or made without regard to the opinions of the youth leadership.  These decisions are also made with little or no regard for the members who make up the order.  These decisions do not take into account of the differences between the cultural and social norms that exist throughout the United States.  They also fail to consider the relationships that exist between cultural entities within specific geographic regions.  With a little creativity solutions could be created that would be generally accepted across the board.  If the local tribe located in the southeast supports the program, then let it be.  If the local tribe in the mid west objects, then make the necessary changes.  Clearly, the BSA will never be as it once was and neither will the OA but if it ain't broke don't fix it, even if it creates differences in the way the program is presented.  

 

 

[InquisitiveScouter 1653]

19 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

The trappings and ceremonial movement are very close to those of another ancient and respected organization and my fellow travelers know exactly what I am talking about.  If those specific things were removed there would be no Order of the Arrow. 

No need to remove ceremonial inductions, signs, symbols, or watchwords...

All those may be observed and preserved

[Cburkhardt 382]

The program belongs to the young adults who are involved.  We cannot go wrong by letting them take the lead on what form the Order of the Arrow needs to take in the future.  That is how the seemingly unresolvable challenge of evolving this program can be effectively handled.

In the 1970s I was influenced greatly and had possibilities in life expanded through peer and adult examples I was able to observe while serving as a Chapter Chief and in in multiple Lodge offices.  I was ceremonies chair and led an honorable dance team with advice from local Native Americans for several years as a young adult.  I dearly loved and respected what I knew of the culture of the Native Americans, even though with the passage of time I have come to realize that we were engaging in an earnest, well-intended re-creation of a life we knew little of.  Imagination and memory cause me to recall something that was more authentic and respectful that it actually was.  I benefitted immensely from my OA experience in many practical ways.  However, the extensive use of Native American lore and the intricate wording of the ceremonies adapted from other organizations did not provide these benefits.  It was the exposure to people, leadership challenges above the unit level and the chance to provide service in broader ways that advantaged me.

The BSA has gone through 20 years of harsh times, overwhelmingly due to some of our members and leaders insisting on factors and practices that were not fundamental to the purposes of the BSA, and not essential to provide positive outcomes for our young adult members.  Going through all of that was awful and significantly damaged our organization.  As we emerge from that period of awfulness, we need peace and normality so we can fully recover our organizational health and mission effectiveness.

As an adult leader of two successful units, I support letting our young people guide the way as to what is important to them to experience above the unit level in an OA-style honor program.  I am not supportive of a public battle to preserve certain aspects of OA that are not fundamental to what we are trying to achieve – no matter how beloved or compelling to any adult Scouters.  I can assure you that none of the 90 youth, 180 parents and 60 adult leaders in my units will line-up to defend the continuation of practices that will renew or extend  BSA controversy.          

[Eagledad 2777]

2 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

To me, if you simply concede ground then you are letting the Order become the very thing you don't want. My son certainly had some opinions, and still does, on some of the youth that were in the Lodge with him. He's rolled his eyes a few times on who was elected as officers or for Vigil. But, he considered it to be motivation to do better himself. Part of the outside motivation for him was his former SM who very much was a "poo poo on the OA and everything else to do with Council" individual who also never was willing to take any constructive feedback from my son as SPL or any other previous SPL about their troop. The SM thought he had it all figured out, and the problem was never with him but everyone else. I don't disagree with your POV on a problem we face, just that the SM on the other side that is just bumping their youth through likely feels they are doing everything right, it's everyone else that is the problem. If we can't ever sit at a table and discuss things, or just aren't willing to even show up at the table, then we reap what we sow. 

I’m not sure my post applies to your experience. I’m saying just because a culture decided to be offended by the innocent and respectful actions of an organization does not make the actions any less innocent and respectful and should be treated with the respect of their intentions.

As for your sons experience, I turned down the district recruiting committees offer to take over as the chapter advisor because I didn’t want to deal with the Scoutmasters. I come from a time when Arrowmen were the special forces of scouting. I would have drove the chapter in that direction and I knew I would meet a lot of resistance.

Barry

[satl8 22]

9 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

One issue for some Troops, including ours.  OA election in March and our council doesn't have a summer camp.  So, for Ordeal you have two opportunities.  One a few weeks after selecting and one in the fall.  If you have a fall sport (many youth) you really only have a few weeks notice and may have a conflict.  Some Troops don't let scouts know until summer camp, so for those, they really have only one opportunity for Ordeal.

This will give scouts a bit more time to attend Ordeal the next spring. Will it make a big difference, who knows.

With the new Polestar process, election/selection results are to be announced immediately.

 

The way it was explained to me at NOAC, it is no different than a Scout sitting on their BOR and not being told for months whether they passed or not.

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by satl8
oops