First-Year Scout wants out already... Is this normal?

[FireStone 423]

My son joined a troop in March at crossover from a Pack where he started as a Tiger. He went to summer camp in July, had a blast, didn't finish any merit badges but did the First Year Camper program. That 90 minute car ride home when I picked him up was 90 full minutes of him talking about the week at camp and how much fun he had.

I thought he was hooked.

He did the usual stuff since, went weekend camping, helped at a service project, went on a couple of local hikes, attends the weekly meetings, etc.

He told me over the weekend that he wants to quit. He doesn't like camping (he camped twice per year with Cubs and attended cub resident camp so it's not new to him), and he doesn't like the Troop program being so scout-led. He preferred the Cub Program where he was always told what to do and when to do it. Advancement was almost automatic. Now he has to talk to ASMs and older scouts to get stuff signed off, take more initiative, put himself out there more.

Which of course is exactly the way it should be, and I know the program is designed this way for good reason. He's just struggling with these changes.

He also told me he has only been doing this up to this point because of me, he thinks I want him to earn Eagle.

Is this just a normal adjustment period in the transition from Cub Scouts to Scouts BSA? Or should I be more concerned about the idea that he's only doing this for me?

If it is just first-year Scout transitional bumps in the road, any advice for helping him with this transition?

[skeptic 992]

Space and time.  He may come around, but I would not push him, as that is usually counter productive IMO.  You also might try to discuss the idea that Scouting is NOT just becoming an Eagle.  That impression is too prominent today in my view.  I have had many scouts hang around to graduation and never go beyond the lowe ranks; but they had fun and friends.  BP said scouting should be fun and done while learning citizenship and responsibility.  The advanced ranks were not initially part of the program, even here.  To become a First Class, really until WWII, was the big goal, and those same scouts were leaders in the War, and the military used elements of Scouting for training.  After the war, the focus got skewed, too much I think.  Of course today, we have a warped society, needing the tenets abut with constant negative feedback from too many.  Again, JMO.

[InquisitiveScouter 1653]

My first read is that your son is realizing he is growing up, and responsibility/accountability scare the heck out of him.  So he wants to avoid those situations, in the hopes that something else will be available where everything is done for him, like in Cub Scouts.  BTW... very impressive that this young man perceives the actual reasons he doesn't wish to continue, and is able to integrate his feelings and thoughts, then verbalize them.  IMO, most Scouts have difficulty with this.

Incentivize the behavior you want.

You want him to continue with Scouting.  Currently, he does not.   Find out what motivates him, and use that as a carrot.  For example, if he really likes skateboarding, make a deal with him that if he does Scouting through Christmas, you'll get him a new skateboard.  Yes, it is OK to negotiate rewards with your children!!  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/experimenting-babies/201907/no-youre-not-bribing-your-kids

Also, do not push advancement!!!  Push experiences!!! Let's go camping/hiking/bird watching/climbing/rafting/cycling.  The advancement will follow!!!

If he has fun without the pressure of focusing on advancement, and then later realizes advancement is a by-product of outdoor experiences, he may come around.

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by InquisitiveScouter

[qwazse 4342]

Oh, for the love of all that is right and holy ...

35 minutes ago, FireStone said:

... He told me over the weekend that he wants to quit. He doesn't like camping ... and he doesn't like the Troop program being so scout-led. He preferred the Cub Program where he was always told what to do and when to do it. ... Now he has to talk to ASMs and older scouts to get stuff signed off, take more initiative, put himself out there more.

... He also told me he has only been doing this up to this point because of me, he thinks I want him to earn Eagle.

Is this just a normal adjustment period in the transition from Cub Scouts to Scouts BSA? Or should I be more concerned about the idea that he's only doing this for me?

If it is just first-year Scout transitional bumps in the road, any advice for helping him with this transition?

Let the kid take a break from troop life! I've seen so many "wrecked" teens who were in this for their dads or grandpas. Maybe you have an exit plan, but I've seen plenty of dads who don't, here are some steps:

• Thank him for telling you this early rather than holding it in. Invite him to keep doing that going forward.
• Make it clear that if he wants to limit his scouting activities, he can. If he wants to resign from the troop, this is the perfect time to do it before they recharter him for the coming year.
• Tell him he needs to let his SM and PL that he will only be staying to the end of the year. (Obviously, you may want to give the SM the heads-up.)
• Let him know that you want, just like the Good Book says, to bring him up in the way he should go -- not the way you needed to go when you were a kid. Being a part of his life is more important than any bling in the world.
• Let him know that the Oath and Law and Outdoor code don't stop because he's off the charter. You expect him to be noble and grow up strong and good. The world's counting on it. (Well, at least one stranger on the internet is.)

A year or two away from the troop, and maybe a few camping trips with his boring family, boredom with summer chores when everyone else is at camp, and he might reconsider. Until then, forget this "transitional bump" and (with all due respect to @InquisitiveScouter) troop life is not something worth negotiating a reward with your kid. There are far more serious things to trade for (academic excellence, craftsmanship, family financial health).

A scout is trustworthy, take him at his word. If he changes his mind in a few months, take him at his word.

Oh, and @FireStone, don't be afraid to keep on scouting if you have a fulfilling role in your troop/district, but remember that we're here for you even if you're off the roster for the sake of your son.

[yknot 1338]

37 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Is this just a normal adjustment period in the transition from Cub Scouts to Scouts BSA? Or should I be more concerned about the idea that he's only doing this for me?

If it is just first-year Scout transitional bumps in the road, any advice for helping him with this transition?

Social issues and bullying can sometimes be the reason for this.  In some troops that have a really hands off attitude this kind of thing can fester along unnoticed and uncorrected. In those cases, it's easier for a kid to drop out than try to stick around because kids, especially younger kids, don't like to complain or talk about other kids. 

[InquisitiveScouter 1653]

8 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Oh, for the love of all that is right and holy ...

Let the kid take a break from troop life! I've seen so many "wrecked" teens who were in this for their dads or grandpas. Maybe you have an exit plan, but I've seen plenty of dads who don't, here are some steps:

• Thank him for telling you this early rather than holding it in. Invite him to keep doing that going forward.
• Make it clear that if he wants to limit his scouting activities, he can. If he wants to resign from the troop, this is the perfect time to do it before they recharter him for the coming year.
• Tell him he needs to let his SM and PL that he will only be staying to the end of the year. (Obviously, you may want to give the SM the heads-up.)
• Let him know that you want, just like the Good Book says, to bring him up in the way he should go -- not the way you needed to go when you were a kid. Being a part of his life is more important than any bling in the world.
• Let him know that the Oath and Law and Outdoor code don't stop because he's off the charter. You expect him to be noble and grow up strong and good. The world's counting on it. (Well, at least one stranger on the internet is.)

A year or two away from the troop, and maybe a few camping trips with his boring family, boredom with summer chores when everyone else is at camp, and he might reconsider. Until then, forget this "transitional bump" and (with all due respect to @InquisitiveScouter) troop life is not something worth negotiating a reward with your kid. There are far more serious things to trade for (academic excellence, craftsmanship, family financial health).

A scout is trustworthy, take him at his word. If he changes his mind in a few months, take him at his word.

Oh, and @FireStone, don't be afraid to keep on scouting if you have a fulfilling role in your troop/district, but remember that we're here for you even if you're off the roster for the sake of your son.

Concur, to a point.

Family situations are varied and complex.  For our family, in the situation we have been in over the past years transitioning from a life on the move in the military to trying to set down some roots, Scouting is/was a great activity for our kids.  And negotiating rewards has worked extremely well for us.

He asked for advice and I gave him advice.  Just because it doesn't or may not have worked for you, don't poo-poo other people's input.

And by the way, we used Scouting in concert with faith, academic excellence, craftsmanship, and family financial health.  Scouting reinforces all of those things, as you well know.

Edited October 13, 2022 by InquisitiveScouter

[FireStone 423]

2 hours ago, yknot said:

Social issues and bullying can sometimes be the reason for this.  In some troops that have a really hands off attitude this kind of thing can fester along unnoticed and uncorrected. In those cases, it's easier for a kid to drop out than try to stick around because kids, especially younger kids, don't like to complain or talk about other kids. 

I think he's being honest enough with me to know that it could be a social issue, but I'm not seeing that as the main issue at this point. He mentioned that on the last camping trip some younger scouts were messed with a bit. Nothing terrible, just some older scouts shaking the tents late at night, although one tent with some first-year scouts inside was flipped over. My son didn't seem too bothered by it, but it's something I will want to ask him about again.

He also was kind of shocked by a couple of scouts who used some particularly bad language often. I don't doubt that kind of stuff happens, but for my son to even mention it means it was pretty bad.

[FireStone 423]

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

Oh, and @FireStone, don't be afraid to keep on scouting if you have a fulfilling role in your troop/district, but remember that we're here for you even if you're off the roster for the sake of your son.

I'm not going anywhere, I'm a Den Leader for a Wolf den. And if my daughter sticks with it through Arrow of Light I might be a Troop Founder and SM in a few years, as it doesn't look like anyone else in my town is going to start a girls troop.

[FireStone 423]

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

My first read is that your son is realizing he is growing up, and responsibility/accountability scare the heck out of him.  So he wants to avoid those situations, in the hopes that something else will be available where everything is done for him, like in Cub Scouts.  BTW... very impressive that this young man perceives the actual reasons he doesn't wish to continue, and is able to integrate his feelings and thoughts, then verbalize them.  IMO, most Scouts have difficulty with this...

I'm pretty impressed he was this articulate about it , being a kid that just turned 12 a week ago. I had a few times in my teens when I wanted to quit and I never had a good reason. Usually something like "it's stupid" or "I look like a dork in the uniform". I never had a good reason, but I think I wanted to be too cool for scouts.

Which kind of get to me more in this situation because he has real reasons to not want to continue. Not just angsty pre-teen/teenager stuff.

If I make any kind of deal with him about it, I think I'd like it to be that he completes a full year before making any decisions. Even if he decides to take a break or leave it completely, I'd like him to make that decision based on having experienced more of what it's all about.

[yknot 1338]

47 minutes ago, FireStone said:

If I make any kind of deal with him about it, I think I'd like it to be that he completes a full year before making any decisions. Even if he decides to take a break or leave it completely, I'd like him to make that decision based on having experienced more of what it's all about.

I think that's a good plan and then you can monitor the social stuff. I don't know if your kid is in a public school system or not but they get heavy character education that if you're not an upstander you are a bystander and that's bad. He may not yet be comfortable in calling out bad behavior, particularly among older kids, but he also may not want to risk being thought of as being a party to it as a bystander. The 12 year old solution is to lose enthusiasm for scouts and drop out. "Good" kids who are not confrontational or good at self advocating really don't know what to do when confronted with bad behavior by other kids. It can seem scary and out of control in settings where adults don't intercede or seem aware. They don't want to get in any trouble by association so they try to get away from the situation. That's hard to do in scouts where you are continually thrown in with the patrol or troop so they quit. If he's comfortable with finishing out the year or at least giving it another few months, maturity may inform his views. 

[fred8033 1592]

5 hours ago, FireStone said:

If I make any kind of deal with him about it, I think I'd like it to be that he completes a full year before making any decisions. Even if he decides to take a break or leave it completely, I'd like him to make that decision based on having experienced more of what it's all about.

Lots of great advice above.  Your response sounds reasonable.  

I'd also recommend to keep watching.  Kids at his age feel lots of pressure.  

[qwazse 4342]

7 hours ago, FireStone said:

I'm pretty impressed he was this articulate about it , being a kid that just turned 12 a week ago. …

Oh, I’m dealing with a dozen articulate 12 year olds these days. Some of them are very witty, and I see the exhaustion on the older boys’ faces as they try to keep up with their conversation.

8 hours ago, FireStone said:

… Nothing terrible, just some older scouts shaking the tents late at night, although one tent with some first-year scouts inside was flipped over. My son didn't seem too bothered by it, but it's something I will want to ask him about again.

He also was kind of shocked by a couple of scouts who used some particularly bad language often. I don't doubt that kind of stuff happens, but for my son to even mention it means it was pretty bad.

Well, in our troop tents are sacrosanct. Foul language is also treated seriously. Unkind, discourteous, and unclean.

These things can be really discouraging to younger scouts. The net effect in our troop is that older scouts who behave like these don’t get elected into O/A. It sometimes takes a few election cycles for them to elevate their behavior.

But, young scouts might not have the patience for that. I had a relatives switch to Trail Life because behaviors like these went unchecked.

On the bright side, your son sounds like the kind of kid I want in my troop. He notices little things.

[FireStone 423]

10 hours ago, qwazse said:

Well, in our troop tents are sacrosanct. Foul language is also treated seriously. Unkind, discourteous, and unclean.

These things can be really discouraging to younger scouts. The net effect in our troop is that older scouts who behave like these don’t get elected into O/A. It sometimes takes a few election cycles for them to elevate their behavior.

But, young scouts might not have the patience for that. I had a relatives switch to Trail Life because behaviors like these went unchecked.

I think he feels like he would be considered a "snitch" if he speaks up. Especially when dealing with kids that are a few years older than him.

I also highly doubt the adult leaders know anything about any of this going on to even be able to try and deal with it. The troop is very much scout-led, which is great, but it also means the adults stay as far away from the scouts as they can, camping in separate areas and unlikely to even know when some tent flipping or bad language is going on.

I'm torn between wanting to step in and mention this to the adults vs. trying to give him space to learn how to navigate some of these social challenges.

[Sentinel947 1205]

2 hours ago, FireStone said:

I think he feels like he would be considered a "snitch" if he speaks up. Especially when dealing with kids that are a few years older than him.

I also highly doubt the adult leaders know anything about any of this going on to even be able to try and deal with it. The troop is very much scout-led, which is great, but it also means the adults stay as far away from the scouts as they can, camping in separate areas and unlikely to even know when some tent flipping or bad language is going on.

I'm torn between wanting to step in and mention this to the adults vs. trying to give him space to learn how to navigate some of these social challenges.

If I was an SM or an ASM, I'd want to know. Youth led isn't permission for Scouts to be bullies and drive other Scouts out of the Troop. 

[qwazse 4342]

1 hour ago, Sentinel947 said:

If I was an SM or an ASM, I'd want to know. Youth led isn't permission for Scouts to be bullies and drive other Scouts out of the Troop. 

this.

We scouters miss a lot. You can find lots of topics on this forum about how we're trying to sort out some behavior or another that's way above our pay grade. Many times, the only reason we know how bad things became was when parents let us know. And, mine is not the most boy-led troop out there, so it's not necessarily because of any physical distance from the adults. Parents have helped us suss out problems from uncouth speech to contraband.

Yes, parents are concerned that they are making their sons to be the "snitch." They really aren't.

Yes, parents feel like their son might be the only one who's bothered by this. That's rarely the case.

Often, the scout needs someone to be their voice. Often multiple scouts are affected. Often the scouts causing trouble, will realize the error of their ways if call out, apologize and can mend their ways. Only rarely will it take the committee to sort it out. That usually happens when things have gone on for too long, and someone will need to be suspended for the good of the troop.

Still, these problems might not be a reason for any particular boy wanting to quit. So, if you bring it up to an SM, try not to link it to your scout wanting to quit. My first year as a scout, my troop had a couple of bullies and some inappropriate PLs, and it didn't make me want to quit. Things had to be fixed, but I wasn't about to let that stuff ruin my fun.