What Happens if BSA Goes Chapter 7.

[Eagle94-A1 2685]

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

For context:

* The Aspen Institute’s study showed that parents with a child in ice hockey spent on average $2,583 per year in 2019. 

* After the gear comes lessons, lift tickets and the cost of getting to and from the mountain. Skiing and snowboarding costs about $2,250 per child in 2019.

* Gymnastics $1200

* Lacrosse $1200

* Tennis $1200

* Flag Football (lowest at) $270

I know in my neck of the woods, there are a lot of parents that can barely afford flag football, let alone other sports. I know I am in that situation. We did 4-h because it was relatively free. Unless they went to the state envirothon, no costs. 

[Cburkhardt 382]

Active Scoutmaster here.  $1,000 per year is an accurate "all-in" estimate of family spending on a year of very active Scouts BSA scouting.  We can all differ on just how the resources come in, but that has been our experience over the last four years.    

[1980Scouter 99]

The LC's in my state are very optimistic of the future. They are hiring employees like crazy in the past month of so.

Of the three councils I checked like 15 FTE's were added in the past month. Many were vacant positions but some are new ones. Seems like some may provide oversight to UMC units maybe. 

Either they know something or are going all in to try and increase membership. 

[qwazse 4342]

For most parents in the area, it's scouting+. E.g., scouting+sports,  scouting+religion, scouting+music, scouting+lifesaving, scouting+vocational tech, etc ...

So, absent BSA, I see that equation reversing, just imagine:

• sports leagues whose away teams camp on the opponents' practice field before/after the game
• church youth camps with more primitive camping opportunities
• recitals in outdoor amphitheaters
• 48-hour preparedness drills
• week long vehicle assembly classes, clothing design camps with fashion shows, etc ...
• overnight dodge-ball tournaments!

In other words, scouting doesn't disappear, it just finds its way into other venues.

I don't think BSA will sell the rights to Eagle Scout or rank advancement in general ... mainly because there are too few organizations who would purchase the program wholesale.  Instead, it will find ways (a la Lone Scout program) to market it to individual organizations without being bogged down in the nitty-gritty of screening adult supervisors. For parents, this will come with a laundry list of caveat emptor. On the other hand it has the potential for international appeal, not unlike the Duke of Edinburgh's award. This is only one possibility off of the top of my head, but it's one possible way that creditors can recoup some of their losses.

[InquisitiveScouter 1653]

18 minutes ago, qwazse said:

not unlike the Duke of Edinburgh's award.

Or our own Congressional Award for Youth:

https://www.congressionalaward.org/

I could see the option of Lone Scouting continuing... will probably need a name, change though.  How about "Family Scouting"!  (Doesn't that seem to be the way they are pushing things anyway?

Edited September 6, 2022 by InquisitiveScouter

[RememberSchiff 3655]

If the BSA does go Chapter 7:

Regarding program, my unit will go on scouting as it did during covid with little need for Council or National, except their self-justifying processes.

I do wonder if the BSA trademarks will be freed to current licensees - units, members... As I understand, the Bankruptcy Code covers most intellectual property but NOT trademarks. See 11 U..S.C. § 101(35A). So maybe current units could run their scouting programs and award Scouting ranks accordingly.

I also wonder if "current licenses" might extend to "public domain" if the BSA Congressional Charter is declared ended. After all, the BSA has not reported to the Nation in the last two years.

Not a lawyer, just wondering.

My $0.01,

Edited September 6, 2022 by RememberSchiff

[5thGenTexan 504]

1 hour ago, 1980Scouter said:

The LC's in my state are very optimistic of the future. They are hiring employees like crazy in the past month of so.

Of the three councils I checked like 15 FTE's were added in the past month. Many were vacant positions but some are new ones. Seems like some may provide oversight to UMC units maybe. 

Either they know something or are going all in to try and increase membership. 

Local Councils = the band continuing to play as the Titanic sunk

[skeptic 991]

The negative attitudes a few bring to this is disappoointing.  IF you believed in Scouting before, you should go back and see why and then work on putting that into play again in some new manner, or even the old.  If you found the early development of Scouting as BP imagined it in the age of huge cultural and international upheaval and the needs of the changing masses and its youth, then you might ask why that seemed a positive for the time and how it might play in the more modern enviroments.  I have to believe that most on here come because they want something from the program, or saw something.  I realize a few are on here because they likely are enjoying the negative elements of this imbalanced trajedy of toxicity that is not actually representative of the real Scouting idea, but rather a reflection of the very reason Scouting should still have a place.  Even the most jaded I suspect, if they are honest, cannot truthfully claim that the benefits of Scouting for over a century, both BSA and the world momement, far out strips the damages from the small darkness that somehow took hold, but is not the real Scouting.  So, those of us that truly believe it still is even more needed and has its place should do what we can to right the ship, even if it means jetisoning some parts of the perhaps too broad or segmented organization.  Do Our Best and put the Law and Oath at the forefront, and work to heal the wounds of the darker societal intrusions.

[InquisitiveScouter 1653]

23 minutes ago, skeptic said:

right the ship, even if it means jetisoning some parts of the perhaps too broad or segmented organization. 

Which ship?  The ship of Scouting, or the ship of BSA?

 

[InquisitiveScouter 1653]

Hear that?  The winds of change...

Thanks to @RememberSchiff

https://experiencebasecamp.org/pages/boy-scouts-of-america

"Scouting is a community parenting program that develops character, citizenship, leadership, and fitness."

[skeptic 991]

54 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Which ship?  The ship of Scouting, or the ship of BSA?

 

Hopefully both.  They really are joined at the hip, more or less.  But, BSA as a corporation, not but one option for the program here.  Would like to see them figure it out, as the bones are still there, and so would be less difficult if done with integrity.

 

[fred8033 1589]

15 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

Active Scoutmaster here.  $1,000 per year is an accurate "all-in" estimate of family spending on a year of very active Scouts BSA scouting.  We can all differ on just how the resources come in, but that has been our experience over the last four years.    

$1000 is for the youth scout who is very active.  ... Add another $1000 for the very active parent ... or more as that active parent often introduces extra costs like neat gear, special extra foods, etc, etc.  When I had four active kids in scouting where we did everything and sometimes in two or three different units, I'd bet we spent $5000 to $7000 a year.  At least the cost of a major family vacation.

[fred8033 1589]

14 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

I also wonder if "current licenses" might extend to "public domain" if the BSA Congressional Charter is declared ended.

I don't think you can "declare" an act of congress ended.  Laws can be found unconstitutional, but courts can't end laws.  Congress would need to a pass a new bill ending the charter.   ... And no President would want to have their name on the bill ending BSA.  And few congressmen or senators would vote to end BSA.

Until then, the current law states perpetual existence.  Very much like laws.  Laws have perpetual existence.  Similar, BSA has perpetual existence.  Even if BSA sold all assets, the company "BSA" has the right to continue.   

Time would wait for the next patriotic President of the United States to re-hydrate BSA.  No act of Congress needed.  The Congressional Charter exists until Congress (and the President) passes a new law voiding the Congressional Charter.  ...  It's one reason I don't think selling the intellectual property would raise any funds. 

 

[fred8033 1589]

If I played the game, what would happen if BSA went chapter 7 ... 

My big fear is that victims of the current settlement would get less and it would take much longer.  

• Chapter 7 means no victim settlement and no funds anytime soon.  
• Chapter 7 means hundreds of millions were spent trying to get a settlement, without success.  
• A new set of lawsuits would start against the insurance companies. 
  • BSA chapter 11 bankruptcy pulls everyone together into a settlement.  Without that, I could easily see every insurance company going on their own.  The chapter 11 bankruptcy creates the opportunity for a collective liability shield.  Without BSA needing that shield, I can't believe insurance companies would get a liability shield ... and thus I can't see insurance companies in a big settlement.  
  • New trials, negotiations, etc.  Probably years down the road.  
  • Possibly outside bankruptcy courts? 
  • Company by company lawsuits?  State by state?  Insurance companies might save money by having it fought in many different venues over decades.
• What little could be collected from BSA in bankruptcy could go to higher priority debt owners.
  • BSA retirement pension program would be in trouble ... especially now as I read some of that money was pulled in ... ??? ... I have been avoiding asking.  
  • Government owned pension guarantee company might be a debt owner at a higher priority level than victim lawsuits.  

Edited September 7, 2022 by fred8033

[RememberSchiff 3655]

3 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I don't think you can "declare" an act of congress ended.  Laws can be found unconstitutional, but courts can't end laws.  Congress would need to a pass a new bill ending the charter.   ... And no President would want to have their name on the bill ending BSA.  And few congressmen or senators would vote to end BSA.

Until then, the current law states perpetual existence.  Very much like laws.  Laws have perpetual existence.  Similar, BSA has perpetual existence.  Even if BSA sold all assets, the company "BSA" has the right to continue.   

Time would wait for the next patriotic President of the United States to re-hydrate BSA.  No act of Congress needed.  The Congressional Charter exists until Congress (and the President) passes a new law voiding the Congressional Charter.  ...  It's one reason I don't think selling the intellectual property would raise any funds. 

 

Bad wording on my part. Chapter 7 would end the corporation and IMHO, the Congressional Charter for a specific, non-existent entity would be...moot?

If new Scouting organizations rose, would the BSA Congressional Charter automatically transfer to any of them? IMHO no. Whatever the name, it/they would be a different corporations and I doubt any new Congressional Charters would be approved. The 1992 debate of ending Congressional Charters might resume in Congress.

Not a lawyer, just another $0.01.

Edited September 7, 2022 by RememberSchiff