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BSA CSA: Concealment or Trustworthy, Loyal...?


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5 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

I do not find my comment misguided at all. You have been in multiple discussions where you downplay Child Sexual Abuse, the reporting of, the handling by authorities and families and now you are trying to make case for teasing and sticking bobby pins into electrical outlets to being equivalent to the effects of Child Sexual Abuse. I can assure as someone who was teased by a sibling and was told by my parents of charring electrical outlets by various means that the trauma of my sexual abuse has left far bigger scars and caused much issues in my life than a compulsion to tell people about kid proofing homes. 

That is your opinion, though it is wrong.  Good luck with dealing with your personal issues.

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Shame on  you.   Eventually every discussion ends with bringing Hitler in.  I'd argue against devaluing other people by associating them with trump or evil or racism or genocide.  It's just not scout

I am going to try to keep this response as scout like as possible...but I just might cross that line so my apologies to moderators if I do. @skeptic you are wrong on so many levels. The trauma of

Now please do not destroy the negative bubbles mrjohns2.  So, as this thread continues, some resourceful or more determined are finding indicators from the awful files that support the idea that at th

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1 hour ago, skeptic said:

That is your opinion, though it is wrong.  Good luck with dealing with your personal issues.

I am going to try to keep this response as scout like as possible...but I just might cross that line so my apologies to moderators if I do.

@skeptic you are wrong on so many levels. The trauma of CSA cannot in anyone's world be compared to the little childhood traumas that all of have endured.

Childhood Sexual Abuse changes the course of one life. It deprives you of being able to deal with life's smaller problems. It causes depression, anxiety, drug addiction, alcohol addiction, and impulse control.  It causes homophobia, the ability to have normal to have normal relationships and it can lead to victims victimizing others. youth who have been traumatized by CSA have a higher rate of criminal behavior. In the worst case it causes one to take their own life.

Some of us have been luckier than others, one of them being myself. I was able to compartmentalize what happened to myself, yet I was unaware of what devastating effects it was even having on my life. Not all of us have been so lucky.

I believe I have never reached my full potential as a human being because of one night where I was abused by two different men. 

I have endured multiple other traumas in my life. My brother was involved in a murder/suicide (he killed his wife and himself. I suffered a Traumatic Brain Injury while serving my country. On a flight from JFK to Philadelphia the little turboprop I was in got to close to the jet wash of a jumbo liner which caused us the plane I was in to go 45 degrees and I watched and screamed as I could see the river coming closer as we plummeted. Luckily the pilot got control back at about 300 feet. I was a front seat passenger on the freeway in a vehicle when a tire, wheel and axle crashed thru the windshield without touching the ground. I watched it come down when it was about 100 feet in the air.

From all of these incidents I have had nightmares, fear of flying (next flight I was on had engine issues and we had to do an emergency landing), Trash in the air while still causes me panic but thank god it is not as it used to be.

What I am trying to get at is all of these other traumas never affected me to anywhere near the degree as the sexual assault against my body. Nothing has changed my life as much as that incident did.

Yes when you talk about the trauma of teasing and charred electrical outlets and imply that they are comparable to CSA I and many others will take umbrage. Especially when that same person keeps saying that compensating victims is taking away from the youth of today.

And thank you for wishing me good luck in dealing with my personal issues but frankly it takes more than good luck. It takes a therapist, a psychiatrist and a daily dose of Prozac and for some money for all of that plus psychiatric hospital care. It also took a surgeon to repair physical damage Oh yes and by the way even the Prozac causes issues such as constant dry mouth, sleep issues. 

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1 hour ago, johnsch322 said:

What I am trying to get at is all of these other traumas never affected me to anywhere near the degree as the sexual assault against my body. Nothing has changed my life as much as that incident did.

Amen, brother. You’re a hero.
 

I’ll let John’s list of life events speak for both of us. No need to pile on. 

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What was this thread about? Or is about? I've had covid for a week and now that I'm back all I see is the usual arguing. Everyone understands but nobody understands. "30 years ago people should have known better" or "30 years ago was a different time." Is that the argument? That's an argument about how we envision people, not how they are. Just one example, watch the Jan 6th hearings if you want to see how people really act vs how we'd like them to act. Tons of evidence of incredibly poor character over decades by the ex president, who is a pathological liar, has been openly planning for a violent transfer of power since 2015, and yet nearly all the good guys left in power in the GOP didn't have the courage to stand up and say anything. They were afraid of the voters. Now they're trying to save their reputations.

It sounds very familiar to what's going on in the BSA. And Russia, now that we're talking about current events. And Jim Crow, pogroms, Rwanda and plenty of other bad behavior if you go back a hundred years.

Most people don't want to rock the boat so those in power either get overthrown by those with bad character or just refuse to see a problem until a critical mass of pain occurs. That's where the BSA is right now. They're paying for past sins. The same thing happened, and is still happening, in Germany since WWII. People asked how could they not know? Why didn't they do something? The scale is different but it sure sounds familiar.

Bravery is a lot harder than people make it out to be. That doesn't exonerate the guilty. Far from it. But it does make me question why we're still having arguments about human nature. I'm not surprised that the survivors who endured a lot of pain are arguing as a way to confront that pain. On the other side are those that think so highly of at least what the BSA stands for, and can't believe the abuse and cover up was so bad. All I can say is if you're not arguing to strengthen the BSA, based on what can be learned from all of the abuse, then you're arguing for the wrong side of history.

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10 hours ago, MattR said:

What was this thread about? Or is about?

I am not a moderator, but I do understand something about facilitating dialogue and fostering an iterative process. That's what humans do, unless we're on the clock of a debate and are given a very rigid format. We wander, since we think and ruminate at different speeds and in different directions. We express ourselves differently and more often than not less than well. We are making progress. Feelings can seem to overwhelm the discussion, but I believe it is very much still on track and having benefit for all involved. (I may be too optimistic.) The subject matter is highly charged and there have to be broad lanes to allow for 90% passion to tease out 10% substance. 

1. Concealment. Did BSA conceal the fact of a significant pattern of historical child sexual abuse in BSA? This was the word used when the conversation started on the Mother Thread. (I didn't use the term, others did.) I think the consensus answer is yes, since the definition doesn't necessarily rise to a level of legal culpability in the minds of most. In my view, that relative agreement was a big win. We made progress.

2. Higher Standard. Did BSA set itself up to be held to a higher moral standard for its leaders and, by logical extension, the institutional behavior of its leaders generally and universally? At this stage, there is not consensus. I think the ayes are the ascendant side of the debate. This seems very clear to me. I'm waiting for promised evidence that other YSOs who came anywhere close to mirroring how BSA elevated SM and other Scouters. Seeing none...?

3. Fraudulent Concealment. Because this is a multipart legal question requiring lots of factual analysis, we have just touched on it. Ellits rightly made the distinction between concealment and the fraudulent kind, but I've been waiting to bring it back to that point., since many had things to say about the higher standard, which necessarily becomes passionate, especially for survivors, since we feel strongly someone could've, should've acted to protect us. The first prong, "special relationship" between Scouts, Scouter and professionals has pretty much been established throughout he various elements of the conversation. 

These are the elements of fraudulent concealment. As I've said, it's a fact-specific test. No BSA case I know of has succeeded in demonstrative fraudulent concealment based only on the existence of the IVF and processes surrounding them.

To establish a prima facie case of fraudulent concealment, a plaintiff [here claimant] must offer proof that satisfies five elements:

1.     the defendant concealed or suppressed a material fact;

2.     the defendant was under a duty to disclose the fact to the plaintiff (special relationship);

3.     the defendant intentionally concealed or suppressed the fact with the intent to defraud the plaintiff; that is, the defendant concealed or suppressed the fact for the purpose of inducing the plaintiff to act differently than s/he would have if she had known the fact;

4.     the plaintiff was unaware of the fact and would have acted differently if she had known of the concealed or suppressed fact;

5.     and, as a result of the concealment or suppression of the fact, the plaintiff sustained damages.

Edited by ThenNow
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9 hours ago, MattR said:

What was this thread about? Or is about? I've had covid for a week and now that I'm back all I see is the usual arguing. Everyone understands but nobody understands. "30 years ago people should have known better" or "30 years ago was a different time." Is that the argument? That's an argument about how we envision people, not how they are. Just one example, watch the Jan 6th hearings if you want to see how people really act vs how we'd like them to act. Tons of evidence of incredibly poor character over decades by the ex president, who is a pathological liar, has been openly planning for a violent transfer of power since 2015, and yet nearly all the good guys left in power in the GOP didn't have the courage to stand up and say anything. They were afraid of the voters. Now they're trying to save their reputations.

It sounds very familiar to what's going on in the BSA. And Russia, now that we're talking about current events. And Jim Crow, pogroms, Rwanda and plenty of other bad behavior if you go back a hundred years.

Most people don't want to rock the boat so those in power either get overthrown by those with bad character or just refuse to see a problem until a critical mass of pain occurs. That's where the BSA is right now. They're paying for past sins. The same thing happened, and is still happening, in Germany since WWII. People asked how could they not know? Why didn't they do something? The scale is different but it sure sounds familiar.

Bravery is a lot harder than people make it out to be. That doesn't exonerate the guilty. Far from it. But it does make me question why we're still having arguments about human nature. I'm not surprised that the survivors who endured a lot of pain are arguing as a way to confront that pain. On the other side are those that think so highly of at least what the BSA stands for, and can't believe the abuse and cover up was so bad. All I can say is if you're not arguing to strengthen the BSA, based on what can be learned from all of the abuse, then you're arguing for the wrong side of history.

Shame on  you.   Eventually every discussion ends with bringing Hitler in.  I'd argue against devaluing other people by associating them with trump or evil or racism or genocide.  It's just not scout like. 

The opposition would point out the badgering, bullying and attempts to overwhelm and devalue the opinion of others.  We should avoid this association so we don't become yet another set of hypocrites sitting on a Jan 6th house committee on unamerican activities.  

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26 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

... The subject matter is highly charged and there have to be broad lanes to allow for 90% passion to tease out 10% substance. 

1. Concealment. ...
2. Higher Standard. ...
3. Fraudulent Concealment. ...

Agreed.  At some point, it's a matter of perspective too.  For example, arguments can be made from statistical broad patterns and others are using a selection of legal cases.  If you look from legal case wise, BSA is guilty.  It's how the system works now.  Many view that system as corrupt and as a self-serving legal system.   i.e. the $185m in proceedings against a bankrupt company that had $400m in assets.   If you approach the arguments from statistics, the IVF files might  have a different conclusion. 

Then consider that BSA had 100+ million youth and 10s of millions of adults.  You will find ugly legal cases in any organization of that size.  ... If you look at statistical broad patterns to define, then there may be a different conclusion.  ... i.e. did BSA have a higher incident rate than others.  

I've been reading the IVF files and amazed at the numbers that I'm seeing that do have press clippings and/or police involvement.    I was actually trying to do see what the percentages were.  Take ten random cases from every five years.  Were police involved?  Was there press?  Did parents know?  I wish I could have finished last night.  

Edited by fred8033
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3 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Then consider that BSA had 100+ million youth and 10s of millions of adults.  You will find ugly legal cases in any organization of that size.  ... If you look at statistical broad patterns to define "did BSA conceal", then there may be a different conclusion.  

 

This has been an incredibly tedious and painful learning experience, but I think I have gained some knowledge and insight. Someone needs to do a full analysis of the files at some point, for multiple reasons, but as I began reading and researching I knew I needed to 'look closer to home'. I knew from the little reading I did that the macro-level fraudulent concealment cases were not finding success. "So," I says to my self, "Self, how many CSA IVF were logged in your little area? Were any of the same leaders involved, locally and/or regionally?" That's when I started doing the geographic search to id the cases and players around my hometown, Troop and LC. Under the law as it's been interpreted so far, the 9 IVF I found, including the one with my SE as the point professional, are more powerful evidence of specific fraudulent concealment than the 19,829 POCs on file for 1972-1979, the 1315 for my state (overall) or the 139 for my LC.

17 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I've been reading the IVF files and amazed at the numbers that I'm seeing that do have press clippings and/or police involvement.    I was actually trying to do see what the percentages were.  Take ten random cases from every five years.  Were police involved?  Was there press?  Did parents know?  I wish I could have finished last night.  

In the 9 I mentioned, police and press involvement is well over half.  The case most relevant to mine was not in the press, but police were involved. My strong objection is the information died in small towns or board rooms and was not carried to parents, Troops, Scouters and Scouts. For the cases that were publicized, the information was already public, for goodness sake. I know Scouters who are incredulous they were never made aware of what was going on around them as far as the number of CSA IVs and the incidents of CSA. They didn't even know how many boating accidents there were, even though they repeatedly requested injury incident reports, etc. 

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49 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Many view that system as corrupt and as a self-serving legal system.   i.e. the $185m in proceedings against a bankrupt company that had $400m in assets.   

It is my opinion that BSA would not have spent anywhere near $185M if they had chosen to have National only in the bankruptcy. How many of those millions were spent in mediation with insurance companies, LC's and CO's? How much was spent in valuations of LC's properties etc. etc.? BSA National and/or their lawyers made this into a bigger boondoggle than it needed to be trying to salvage as many of their business relationships as they could.

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2 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

It is my opinion that BSA would not have spent anywhere near $185M if they had chosen to have National only in the bankruptcy. How many of those millions were spent in mediation with insurance companies, LC's and CO's? How much was spent in valuations of LC's properties etc. etc.? BSA National and/or their lawyers made this into a bigger boondoggle than it needed to be trying to salvage as many of their business relationships as they could.

Yes.  ... from my limited following, it seems BSA wants the bigger bankruptcy.  

I'd argue it's definitely also the plaintiff side too.  From my understanding, if it was a BSA only bankruptcy, the pot of money is much smaller and would be distributed to the victims.  Instead, the bigger bankruptcy effectively lets the BSA money finance getting money from insurance companies, LCs, etc.  ...  This is the part that's sort of creepy to me.  In large class actions, law firms often finance the suit as part of getting their own windfall.  In this case ... at least in my view ... firms are getting hourly payments ... and will also get a large windfall as a share of the settlements.  ... I could be wrong.  It seems wrong to get both the hourly rates and the windfall. 

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11 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

firms are getting hourly payments ... and will also get a large windfall as a share of the settlements.  ... I could be wrong.  It seems wrong to get both the hourly rates and the windfall. 

I also believe there should be no double dip. The firms you are talking about belong to the coalition and they are not presently billing hourly instead there are millions that BSA has agreed to pay them if the plan is approved. 

This was in order to get there yes endorsement on the plan which kind of sounds like bribery to me.

Edited by johnsch322
another thought
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5 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

I also believe there should be no double dip. The firms you are talking about belong to the coalition and they are not presently billing hourly instead there are millions that BSA has agreed to pay them if the plan is approved. 

This was in order to get there yes endorsement on the plan which kind of sounds like bribery to me.

I have no connection to the Coalition.  Coalition firms have not billed the BSA, nor have their legal professionals.  They were allowed to be a mediation party but must get the Judges approval for any reimbursement of expenses because they made a "substantial contribution" to getting a plan confirmed.  The BSA said that was okay with them and the TCC said it wasn't taking a stand because to do so would effectively be an endorsement of that and would not put itself in a position to endorse fees for professionals other than their own.  Yes, the judge can confirm a plan and NOT approve payment to mediation parties or require separate proceedings for that.  If she denies payment the Coalition firms would presumably be on the hook for paying the fees.  This is an interesting issue since the Judge seemed skeptical at times of the whole Coalition organization and role of its hired professionals.  Remember too that at least on one occasion a Coalition attorney tried to engage in debate and the Judge shut that down because he had representation.  "Bribery"....well, it's part of the "Deal making" in Bankruptcy.  A shame but "if you want your plan confirmed and the votes of our clients we'll support it if you support our fees for helping out" is the viewpoint basically.  Welcome to Day 91 of waiting.

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5 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I'd argue it's definitely also the plaintiff side too.  From my understanding, if it was a BSA only bankruptcy, the pot of money is much smaller and would be distributed to the victims.  Instead, the bigger bankruptcy effectively lets the BSA money finance getting money from insurance companies, LCs, etc.

The pot would be MUCH smaller at this point.  It's hard to see Century and The Hartford contributing much, if at all, if they still had exposure at the LC level.  These two insurers NEVER want to hear about the BSA again.  A comprehensive bankruptcy addressing all of their expositor is their goal too.

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For those who keep score ... :) ... 

  • Today is July 15, 2022
  • BSA filed bankruptcy - Feb 18, 2020 ... 2 years 5 months ago
  • Court hearings ended and waiting ruling - April 15, 2022 (?) ... 3 months ago
  • Appeals, creating and administering the trust, etc,  ... TBD years
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21 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

For those who keep score ... :) ... 

  • Today is July 15, 2022
  • BSA filed bankruptcy - Feb 18, 2020 ... 2 years 5 months ago
  • Court hearings ended and waiting ruling - April 15, 2022 (?) ... 3 months ago
  • Appeals, creating and administering the trust, etc,  ... TBD years

At first, everything about this case surprised me. Today, nothing does. That is not a happy shift in perspective. Meh.

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