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BSA CSA: Concealment or Trustworthy, Loyal...?


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5 minutes ago, yknot said:

I'm not aware that the Y's of the world or the Little League have anything even remotely comparable.

Thank you. The example you gave, something I know of only bc of this forum, is perfect. It sets the boundary for the other side of the box I'm trying to draw. 

As to all those other YSOs, I am not kidding when I say I did pretty much anything and everything I could to stay out of the house. I have always been very observant, wanting to exceed what is expected of me. That goes back as far as I can remember, exacerbated by the various abuses from various people. During my youth, I know of no organized activity, not even the RCC, that had the repeated call to trust, obey, believe and follow. None. Granted, priests wore a crucifix and that was a powerful reminder of their position on the planet. I never had one send me home because the seams on my cassock was crooked or call me out because my scapular was hanging other than plumb, though. 

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Shame on  you.   Eventually every discussion ends with bringing Hitler in.  I'd argue against devaluing other people by associating them with trump or evil or racism or genocide.  It's just not scout

I am going to try to keep this response as scout like as possible...but I just might cross that line so my apologies to moderators if I do. @skeptic you are wrong on so many levels. The trauma of

Now please do not destroy the negative bubbles mrjohns2.  So, as this thread continues, some resourceful or more determined are finding indicators from the awful files that support the idea that at th

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21 hours ago, scoutldr said:

When I was teaching YP (before online videos), the message was clear.  If you witness or suspect abuse, you are to call the Scout Executive directly on his private number, and NO ONE ELSE.  We were told the SE knew who to call and would handle it.  My spidey-sense was telling me this was wrong.

 

19 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

My early YP training as a rec league baseball coach AND as a CYO coach 20+ years ago had the same directives.  ... The explanation I received from both was about the same:  law enforcement would only act if there was clear evidence of a crime.  Which jibes with one of my earlier posts about the limitations of a law enforcement approach.  In addition, the authorities wouldn't reach back to the organizations, especially if they didn't investigate or didn't find any criminal activity.  That left the orgs in a tough place without vital information:  someone that's a jerk but not quite a criminal shouldn't be a coach or a scout leader 

So this was likely not so sinister, just best, or at least common, practices for a w

 

Posted in another thread.  A good example of why the original rule might not have been sinister at all.

56 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

As a technical matter, national has an 800 number originally intended for persons to report misbehavior of employees.  The service is operated by an outside HR contractor.  Complaints can include any HR-related matters as well as abuse situations.  People became aware of the 800 number and began phoning-in complaints about volunteers and even youth.  Rather than ignore these reports, national's contractor makes local councils aware of the volunteer/youth complaints and follow-up is largely the responsibility of local councils. 

Given the parental passions and volunteer conflicts, I could understand why an organization wanted to triage out the noise.  A great cost savings was when BSA updated YP to route all calls to a government public organization.  Let that organization handle a large share of the noise.  

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18 hours ago, clbkbx said:

As I understand it now, an ASM reached out to the SE, concerned that I was being abused. The ASM was told everything was ok (not sure on what basis). I know my parents weren’t contacted because they were/are upset when they found this out. 

I am amazed that no one talked to you. I also was not asked and one of my perpetrators was in the IV files and was suspected of having 11 plus victims.

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The one consistent theme that I have seen from the BSA is the notion that there is nothing to see here, deflect, deny and minimize. 

Certain aspects of the above can also be seen thru the bankruptcy and from current members.

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48 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

I am amazed that no one talked to you. I also was not asked and one of my perpetrators was in the IV files and was suspected of having 11 plus victims.

That's right, no one talked to me, either. This was in the early/mid 90's.

As far as I know now, my abuser was not in the IV files although I'm fairly certain I was not the only one. I wonder how it will change my perception if I do find out as part of this process that he was. Reading your post about (at least) 11 other suspected victims has hit hard. I'm so sorry, it's hard to fathom. 

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5 hours ago, yknot said:

I don't think it's honest to say that an organization that can produce and still to this day perpetuate and protect a situation like Mic-O-Say isn't outside of the norm and doesn't foster, closed, cultlike subsocieties and mentalities. I'm not aware that the Y's of the world or the Little League have anything even remotely comparable. If BSA can close ranks around something as ... I'll be nice and call it questionable ... as Mic-O-Say, who could trust that it wouldn't have closed ranks around anything else it deemed inconvenient to acknowledge? 

As far a I am aware Mic-O-Say is limited to one council and one camp.  Many of the complaints that I have seen raking OA over the coals for cultural insensitivity are actually accounts of Mic-O-Say and have had photos to show that.  To the average outside person, there is no difference.  In this day and age I do not see how it is still allowed to continue unchallenged by National.  

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2 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

As far a I am aware Mic-O-Say is limited to one council and one camp.  Many of the complaints that I have seen raking OA over the coals for cultural insensitivity are actually accounts of Mic-O-Say and have had photos to show that.  To the average outside person, there is no difference.  In this day and age I do not see how it is still allowed to continue unchallenged by National.  

It's in a couple of councils and camps. I can't fathom how it continues. BSA is lucky the people who made Leave No Trace seem to be unaware of it and didn't cut images in to juxtapose with some of the interviews.  

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18 hours ago, clbkbx said:

I wonder how it will change my perception if I do find out as part of this process that he was. Reading your post about (at least) 11 other suspected victims has hit hard. I'm so sorry, it's hard to fathom. 

I'm sorry these reporting and warning failures were added to the damage of the abuse itself. It's not good. Not good at all.

I am waiting for my opportunity to request of BSA/the Trustee verification of the number of other claims that name my SM abuser, as well as any of those I know or suspect to be complicit. My discovery requests are already written. I also want to know dates and Tiers of abuse. I know for certain other boys were abused, but I do not know how many of them filed claims. I am 100% sure there are some, since I've verified that through backchannels after I saw my troop on the AbusedInScouting map of clients. It took my breath away, even though it was no surprise. Since my abuse was very early on in our SM's tenure, I am pretty sure I was the first. The thought of those who came after me is crushing, sickening and maddening. I can't express it in words and that's an unusual occurrence. One of my little brother's friends who was in the troop well after me, being seven years my junior, drank himself to death. They went to university together and my brother confronted him, in love and friendship, after I hinted at what happened to me. My brother saw the parallels between the two of us. High achieving in life and Scouts. High potential trajectory. Crash into drugs and alcohol. He confirmed he had been abused by our SM, but would never say anything to anyone. My brother drafted and executed an affidavit describing this interaction with his friend. The document is in my POC. It's a very tragic state of affairs, this thing we're tangled up in. Very, very.

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47 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Since my abuse was very early on in our SM's tenure, I am pretty sure I was the first. The thought of those who came after me is crushing, sickening and maddening.

Same here within the troop but, as noted, I do believe there was at least one victim before me. 
 

My troop was not listed in released IV files. I reached out to a family acquaintance younger than me that was in the same troop and he said there were rumors of someone else after me. I wish that I hadn’t asked… it’s one more thing that I don’t know  from a time that I’m still processing. (Thanks again to this forum… and therapists!)

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It seems I read from someone posting that once an incident from a local council was reported to National that all records of the incident were to be destroyed (including correspondence) at the local level. Tried to find the post does anyone know if this was true?

 

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5 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

Tried to find the post does anyone know if this was true?

I’ve read about 50 IV files from the LA newspaper (?) website. They include a decent amount of correspondence between the local council and regional/ nations bsa. None say to destroy records. Most / all say to “forward on” any additional information.  

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58 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

I’ve read about 50 IV files from the LA newspaper (?) website. They include a decent amount of correspondence between the local council and regional/ nations bsa. None say to destroy records. Most / all say to “forward on” any additional information.  

I did not read this in the IV files, but you piqued my curiosity and read a couple that were not my own. I came across this gem and I quote from Scout Executive James E Houck

"From the date this was found out, there has been no contact made by the three men to the boys to my knowledge. The committee worked hard to overcome this situation and to keep it from getting to much publicity both for the boys and for scouting. They were able to get the services of a State Trooper, John Simms, who obtained the rank of Eagle"

I may not be the smartest man but the fact that a committee worked hard to contain publicity and recruited a State Trooper to help speaks volumes about concealment. We can't let the public at large know what is happening.

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21 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

I did not read this in the IV files, but you piqued my curiosity and read a couple that were not my own. I came across this gem and I quote from Scout Executive James E Houck

"From the date this was found out, there has been no contact made by the three men to the boys to my knowledge. The committee worked hard to overcome this situation and to keep it from getting to much publicity both for the boys and for scouting. They were able to get the services of a State Trooper, John Simms, who obtained the rank of Eagle"

I may not be the smartest man but the fact that a committee worked hard to contain publicity and recruited a State Trooper to help speaks volumes about concealment. We can't let the public at large know what is happening.

Whoa... 

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5 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

I did not read this in the IV files, but you piqued my curiosity and read a couple that were not my own. I came across this gem and I quote from Scout Executive James E Houck

"From the date this was found out, there has been no contact made by the three men to the boys to my knowledge. The committee worked hard to overcome this situation and to keep it from getting to much publicity both for the boys and for scouting. They were able to get the services of a State Trooper, John Simms, who obtained the rank of Eagle"

I may not be the smartest man but the fact that a committee worked hard to contain publicity and recruited a State Trooper to help speaks volumes about concealment. 

It's a partial statement from years ago with little context and virtually zero detail.  

I asked @johnsch322 for the IVF case file name.  Thank you @johnsch322

Who requested that the boys not get too much publicity?  ... From other pages in that file, it references the victims parents did not want state attorney to press charges.  ... The IVF file also lists a state police file number and how BSA national can get more information from the state police.  It also lists the state attorney general and the investigating officer (officer Potts)  ...

The reference to "services of State Trooper John Simms" (according to other pages) refers to Simms stepping up as SM for the coming year to help a troop really damaged by this incident.  There is no inference Simms covered anything up.  ... Rather, Simms (an Eagle scout) stepped up in a really ugly situation.  ... Which begs asking how many people knew ... "committee" knew according to the file ... Most committees are staffed 90% by the parents of the current scouts.  ... So, this may or may not have been in the press.  It was in police investigated and well known.  

Yeah, the file does reference trying to preserve scoutings name too.  But generally, this file seems to be a good reflection on the IVF files working as they were intended and shows many people did the right actions.  

A real sign of the times was a short phrase:  Police filed no charges, rather the perpetrator was under doctors care and being treated.  Yeah, it was treated as a disease and treatment centers that helped alcoholics also treated these individuals.

 

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13 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Who requested that the boys not get too much publicity?

In one letter it mentions no newspaper publicity, In another it says committee worked hard to keep away publicity for victims and BSA. from the tone I would say that the committee (BSA) did not want the publicity.

PS page 4 is missing...I wonder what that mentioned.

Something else is also curious there are three perpetrators mentioned.

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