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To conclude my son’s were wronged by this Troop and its organization. They agree that it is ok for grown men to bully kids. This council has wronged them by not listening to their story and choosing to turn a blind eye… not to question.  The organization rep wants to NOW meet with me and too little too late. We are moving to another troop. Going to get them through their eagle as soon as possible. Sad that 9+ years in the pack/troop and  working with multiple SM only to realize that it was for not. 

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I'm going to agree that, on it's face, this wasn't really a YP violation.  It may well have been a "Bad Scoutmaster " situation, but not a Youth Protection violation.  A single incidence of being mean

I'm kinda disturbed by the attitude displayed here that bullying is not a reportable incident. Handling stuff like this on the quiet is a big part of what has led to the BSA's current legal trouble.

I'd draw a distinction between conducting an investigation (implying having authority to investigate, collect evidence, draw conclusions, and perhaps take disciplinary action), and merely collecting e

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On 5/19/2022 at 11:53 AM, Cecille25 said:

**the boys in the troop have the shirt with the big 58 in many colors. 

I'm catching up but I noticed that you posted that comment and then photos of Scouts and adults.  I'm also assuming that these are not all your family.  If that's the case I believe they should be removed from this forum.  Unless releases were signed or there was express consent that photos taken during a Scouting event would be shared with a larger audience I suspect those pictured and their parents believed this was for private and not public use.  If It was my child I'd ask that you use photos he wasn't in to make your case.

All of that said, I hope you will be as aggressive as you believe is warranted in addressing your YP concerns.  When it comes to youth safety, mental or physical, there's no excuse not to be zealous. 

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5 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

For future reference, is this documented somewhere? 

I called national and spoke to them via their hotline. The Committee hand book doesn’t specify how to deal with YPT infractions since they are not really the group to investigate a report. The Charter Organization Rep handbook is the one really supposed to be involved with council and resolving diputes along side the organization exec. They are also the ones who are supposed to make sure that they appoint those in the committee and troop that will uphold the scout values since they indirectly represent the charter organization. In all my years they have never had an say as to who is picked for any position… it was just whomever stepped up to the plate. 

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On 5/23/2022 at 6:27 PM, Cecille25 said:

I called national and spoke to them via their hotline. The Committee hand book doesn’t specify how to deal with YPT infractions since they are not really the group to investigate a report. The Charter Organization Rep handbook is the one really supposed to be involved with council and resolving diputes along side the organization exec. They are also the ones who are supposed to make sure that they appoint those in the committee and troop that will uphold the scout values since they indirectly represent the charter organization. In all my years they have never had an say as to who is picked for any position… it was just whomever stepped up to the plate. 

I have not seen any details on how to properly conduct a youth protection violation investigation in either a committee or chartered org handbook.  I expect BSA would not want committee chairs or chartered orgs to be leading these investigations.  This isn't a volunteer's role.  

 

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1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

I have not seen any details on how to properly conduct a youth protection violation investigation in either a committee or chartered org handbook.  I expect BSA would not want committee chairs or chartered orgs to be leading these investigations.  This isn't a volunteer's role.  

 

Correct the ones doing the investigation are at council and national level. CC are not supposed to be doing this and are not given a copy of the report submitted to national. So this CC telling me that she was told I had to give her a copy was absolutely not correct. 

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1 minute ago, Cecille25 said:

she was told

I find people often use the passive voice to hide...

I always then ask the direct question, "Who told you?" If they can't give me name or point of contact, I ignore them.  If they give me a name, I call the source (eliminate the middleman) and get the story straight.  Nine times out of ten, what person A said and what person B heard are two entirely different things.

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2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I have not seen any details on how to properly conduct a youth protection violation investigation in either a committee or chartered org handbook.  I expect BSA would not want committee chairs or chartered orgs to be leading these investigations.  This isn't a volunteer's role.  

 

I'd draw a distinction between conducting an investigation (implying having authority to investigate, collect evidence, draw conclusions, and perhaps take disciplinary action), and merely collecting evidence and information to pass on to those authorized to formally investigate.

If chartering organizations are going to be held responsible for the actions of those registered in their units, the leadership of those units ought to be interested in and take a part in investigating (collecting information at the least) alleged youth protection violations.

 

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10 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I find people often use the passive voice to hide...

I always then ask the direct question, "Who told you?" If they can't give me name or point of contact, I ignore them.  If they give me a name, I call the source (eliminate the middleman) and get the story straight.  Nine times out of ten, what person A said and what person B heard are two entirely different things.

Yep, I can easily see an exchange going something like:

SE:  "I can't give you any information at this stage, if you want to know what the complaint entails you'll need to speak with the aggrieved party."

Turns into:

CC: "The SE can't tell me what happened so you need to tell me what the issue was that got reported so that we can discuss it with the committee and figure out what needs to be done"

Turns into:

Parent: "The CC is demanding I turn over a copy of my report so they can investigate it"

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On 5/20/2022 at 5:47 AM, Cecille25 said:

Unfortunately the CC did not act as they should have and the DE said it was investigating the situation. The DE later was hostile and refused and sided with the actions of the CC in them holding this meeting with the parents and SM. I called national and they told me the CC and DE were in the wrong and that I was correct in not giving the CC any information since it involved a minor. It is confidential information. There was more than enough evidence from those at camp, voice messages, texts and photos of the incident. The real issue is that 2 grown men do not have the right nor authority to intimidate, exclude him from his group, humiliate, embarrass, say “why can’t you be normal?”…  and bringing him to tears. That is not acceptable and apparently here in Central FL its OK to behave that way. Only makes. me ill. 

The problem with "Calling National" is that they are only giving you the answer from the perspective of the "official" Youth Protection Violation report policy.  So from that perspective they gave you a technically correct answer, but still didn't actually address your issue.  Your CC isn't trying to conduct an official "Youth Protection Violation Investigation", they are doing a concurrent examination of the situation to see if immediate troop level action is required.

National has only one button to push when it comes to Troop level leadership; they can pull a Scouter's membership.  National doesn't have the ability to remove him as Scoutmaster while leaving him as a registered Scouter, or limit his behavior or tell him he can't make decisions about Class B uniforms.  They can only decide if his behavior warrants kicking him out of the program.

By contrast, your Troop committee DOES have the ability to do all of those other things, which is likely why they wanted to meet to discuss the issue.  And there is NOTHING about the the Youth Protection report you filed that says a troop can't also independently review an adult's actions and respond in addition to whatever the local council decides to do.

 

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9 minutes ago, elitts said:

The problem with "Calling National" is that they are only giving you the answer from the perspective of the "official" Youth Protection Violation report policy.  So from that perspective they gave you a technically correct answer, but still didn't actually address your issue.  Your CC isn't trying to conduct an official "Youth Protection Violation Investigation", they are doing a concurrent examination of the situation to see if immediate troop level action is required.

National has only one button to push when it comes to Troop level leadership; they can pull a Scouter's membership.  National doesn't have the ability to remove him as Scoutmaster while leaving him as a registered Scouter, or limit his behavior or tell him he can't make decisions about Class B uniforms.  They can only decide if his behavior warrants kicking him out of the program.

By contrast, your Troop committee DOES have the ability to do all of those other things, which is likely why they wanted to meet to discuss the issue.  And there is NOTHING about the the Youth Protection report you filed that says a troop can't also independently review an adult's actions and respond in addition to whatever the local council decides to do.

 

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!!!

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Once again, the simple concept of local accountability and common sense are lost in the egos of too many adults.  Meanwhile, the youth issue is not being properly addressed.  I too often see the expectation that somehow someone from "on high" can dictate to those in the trenches.  But real Scouting is local, which means the units directly.  That is WHY there is a committee.  And their option should be to get the input of the COR, if necessary, but try to find the solution within by actual adult discussion, not childish accusations and hysteria.  Or so an old guy sees it.

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2 hours ago, elitts said:

Yep, I can easily see an exchange going something like:

SE:  "I can't give you any information at this stage, if you want to know what the complaint entails you'll need to speak with the aggrieved party."

Turns into:

CC: "The SE can't tell me what happened so you need to tell me what the issue was that got reported so that we can discuss it with the committee and figure out what needs to be done"

Turns into:

Parent: "The CC is demanding I turn over a copy of my report so they can investigate it"

The issue is this..

Quote

Now this committee member is wanting to hold a meeting of all members and volunteers to discuss the YPT infraction

If this is true, it is not appropriate.  It is one thing for a CC to ask for information and to discuss in a committee (though, it think you should be careful and it should be avoided in more serious charges).  That said, I find it odd to think it is appropriate to have an entire Troop meeting to discus the issue in hand. 

Now, after an investigation is complete, perhaps some report to the Troop is appropriate if changes are required.   Otherwise, I have a hard time understanding why it is appropriate to have all members and volunteers involved.

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2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

The issue is this..

If this is true, it is not appropriate.  It is one thing for a CC to ask for information and to discuss in a committee (though, it think you should be careful and it should be avoided in more serious charges).  That said, I find it odd to think it is appropriate to have an entire Troop meeting to discus the issue in hand. 

Now, after an investigation is complete, perhaps some report to the Troop is appropriate if changes are required.   Otherwise, I have a hard time understanding why it is appropriate to have all members and volunteers involved.

I agree, that's certainly not a conversation that should involve all members of the troop.  I would think Key 3 and maybe 1-3 more if there are long term committee members with positions who know all the parties involved would be sufficient and appropriate.

But, it doesn't sound like the OP actually engaged in any significant dialog with the CC on the issue, so it's hard to know if the CC saying "lets discuss it with everyone" meant literally everyone or if he/she meant it the way my CC would have with just the core Committee members.

 

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On 5/22/2022 at 9:03 PM, Cecille25 said:

To conclude my son’s were wronged by this Troop and its organization. They agree that it is ok for grown men to bully kids. This council has wronged them by not listening to their story and choosing to turn a blind eye… not to question.  The organization rep wants to NOW meet with me and too little too late. We are moving to another troop. Going to get them through their eagle as soon as possible. Sad that 9+ years in the pack/troop and  working with multiple SM only to realize that it was for not. 

I'd take the meeting with the COR at least by phone.  They have the authority to replace the CC or the SM if they feel the situation demands it.  I still think you should move on FWIW.  Even if the COR does the right thing here, I think the well is poisoned.  You will be valued elsewhere.

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