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Trying to re-write history Backpacker will not do you any more good that trying to rewrite the program. The BSA was never like Baden-Powell's original program.


From the outset when Seton and Beard changed the emphasis from B-Ps military theme to one of indian lore the BSA broke away from what B-P established in his first book. Seton's merit badge program, and the creation of the Eagle Scout Rank, all bothered B-P greatly.


Baden-Powell's own vision of scouting changed over the years. What he first viewed as a program to strengthen England's military abilities changed over the next 2 decades to Scouting being a tool of world peace through the interassociation of Scouts around the world.


B-P, Hillcourt, Seton, and Beard all had in mind a program that used the innate character of youth as a vehicle for education, by using the things that interested them as a vehicle to teach character and self-sufficiency.


Just going outdoors and sitting classroom like taking tests was not what they had in mind. Nor was cleaning latrines when you misbehaved, or having adults make random rules to control scouts rather than have to learn and apply leadership.


The program designed and taught today by the BSA is far closer to the scouting of the early designers than anything you have shared to this point.


By the way I answered all your questions so far regarding my background but you have avoided mine. All I asked was what position you got to serve on during Wood Badge and what presentation you enjoyed doing the most.


And I am still waiting for which Scoutmaster course you took in 02 at PTC and what you learned from it.


Rather than argue why not just have a converstaion about two courses we both enjoyed?


(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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Geeze Bob,


Where do you think the patrol method, uniform style, signaling, stalking, etc. all came from? Powells program thats where. What kind of revisionist book are you reading? Beard incorporated his Young Pioneer program into American scouting, thats where the indian lore came from. Young Pioneers never really took off and Beard wanted to keep it alive being the egotist that he was. Seton wanted his life work represented as well, hence all the activities centered around nature and animals were incorporated. So if anyone needs to get their history straight it is you Bob. The only part you got right is that none of them got along well each one considered himself the definitive expert, remind you of anyone Bob? Why do you keep hounding me with a need to know about my Philmont and Woodbadge courses Bob?

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BW write -


"But do not confuse the BSA with Baden-Powell's program. They never were the same."


"The BSA was never like Baden-Powell's program."


Okay - if I am following you now, what you are saying is that Baden-Powell's scouting and BSA's scouting are completely different. Like comparing an airplane to a sock. Then why would the BSA hold him up at the founder of Scouting? Why would the BSA point to him as a symbol of Scouting? Why would the BSA base so much of their program from his teaching? Why hasn't the BSA disassociated itself from this interloper?

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Actually Beard's group was "The Society of the Sons of Daniel Boone" and Seton's group was the "Woodcraft Indians" both merged their organizations into the fledgling BSA, I am not familiar with who the "Young Pioneers" were or what their contribution was. Had Beard been the egotist you suggest I doubt he would have recommended Seton as the First Chief Scout Executive of the BSA rather than himself.


I never said that Baden-Powell's methods were not core to the scouting movement in the U.S. or any other country for that matter. You will be unable to find any post where I do not support the Patrol method, uniforming, or any of Powell's teaching methods.


The question I had was in the use of quoting one line without the perspective of who B-P was speaking to, when, and for what purpose. Your quote is without context and so can be manipulated to serve a number of interprtations and not necessarily the one B-P had in mind at the time.


As for my questions about the training it has two purposes. You inquired about my background and I told you. I even offered to share more information at your request. It seems only fair that I should be able to discuss the same with you. The second is talking about a shared experience seems more worthwhile than arguing.


I sent you PMs rather than use forum space but my messages went unanswered. If you would rather talk about these shared training experiences off line please write me via the PM link to the left of this post or feel free to answer here. But I find you reluctance to answer curious.




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Ok score one for you, Sons of D. Boone was Beards, Young Pioneers was an early rival of BSA that withered away but my point still remains valid, the BSA was not an independent creation but was rooted at its core with Badens program in England. The reason Seton was first Scout Exec was that he was a nationally recognized author and the new group wanted someone recognizable nationwide, Beard was not as popular and many thought he was eccentric, so he didn't have a chance and he knew it.


As far as Philmont, the two courses I took there were 1)Strictly for Scoutmasters- where we discussed all the ideas of tweaking the program for your own situation, which you feel are subversive for some unknown reason. 2)Teaching Advanced Outdoor Skills. I attended Woodbadge in California, and at Gilwell Park in which I was the only yank in the group. Recently I completed Powderhorn as well. Currently I am a scoutmaster and an associate advisor for a Venture crew I helped found, both groups doing phenomenally well.

I hope this satisfies your curiosity.I never received any of your pm's.(This message has been edited by Backpacker)

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So you had Frank as your conference leader in 02, that's great. When did you serve on Wood Badge, have you had a chance to do the WB of the 21st Century yet? How did you like it?


The Young Pioneers by the did not exist in the USA, they were a youth group formed in communist Russia from 1939 to 1945. Just thought I fill in some blans.

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FBs statement- Boyce brought Scouting and Powell to America. Boyce brought Seton and Beard together from two different youth groups to start the BSA. He then hired West and West later got rid of Boyce and Seton.


BWs statement- It was Seton that hired West


I apologize for not checking all of my facts before writing. I have included my corrections.


BWs statement- It was Seton that hired West. Partially correct. He was one of a 35 member board that hired West.

FB stated that Boyce hired Seton. Partially correct. Boyce was also on the same board.

FBs timeline was too short and didnt include some other Heroes.


Reason for entry:

I have long regarded the founders of Scouting as "Heroes". When a person discredits their worth based on the disagreements they had, then I would like to point that individual to the complete body of works to reconsider such a statement. I have included a short version.


W.D. Boyce owned the name "Boy Scouts of America"-Spring of 1910.

(Note: This fact was later to become very important in the fight for recognition of the BSA.) He asked for and received help from W.M. Robinson of the YMCA and two others (i.e., Dr. Doggett and J.A. Van Dis) from the YMCA to establish the program. W.M. Robinson became the first Chief Scout Executive. Boyce supplied $1,000 per month and $4,000 by the end of the year (i.e, about a half a million by today's standards) to run the new organization.

(Note-this money was essential at the time to remain solvent.)


It was Robinson that brought Seton into the program, not Boyce as I wrongly stated. Seton became the first Chief Scout and wrote the first Scout manual (i.e., a combination of his and B.P.'s work) and then Dan Beard objected to Setons claim of founding the Boy Scout program. Beard had coined the term Boy Scout pre-B.P. and pointed out that Seton had interviewed him (Beard) and then used the term in his new publication as his own.


The new National BSA Council with 35 members hired James E. West. It was not the work of Seton alone, as BW stated (so partial credit is given for BW's 1/35 correct answer, mine was 1/35 correct also, so he and I must get our answers from about the same sources.) Seton, Boyce and Beard were all part of the 35 member board that hired West.


It was said that Ralph Waldo Emerson's statement, "An institution is the lengthened shadow of one man", proclaims the accomplishments of James E. West's work for the BSA over the first 32 years he served.


It was B.P. at a banquet in N.Y. that gave credit to Seton and Beard as being the founders of Scouting and saying the he, B.P. was only one of the uncles. B.P. brought the military ideas, Seton the thinking of the Indians, and Beard the terms of the Knights of the Buckskin. "All three streams converged in Boy Scouting in America." Robinson then proclaimed B.P. as the real founder of Scouting throughout the world.


We still see the legacy of all three today in the BSA. That is worth more than a simple historical footnote of "necessity", moreover, it was something that brings me to the conclusion of Hero(es). (*yes, this is my perspective that is part of my claim to knowing some truth in this life and I am willing to share some of it here.)


Second reason for my entry:


People disagree all of the time on all kinds of issues. Scientists daily disagree on the validity of all kinds of truths. Theologians disagree frequently on all kinds of ultimate answers of faith. Scouts disagree on how they should approach their leadership positions. Leaders disagree on how they should do thier part of the Scouting program.


Some disagreements are minor and some are major but disagreement is a normal part of growth and should be respected as such. None of us have a corner on all of the truths of Scouting or anything else, as evidenced on a regular basis in this forum. It is my hope that we can learn from each other in a way that encourages growth, especially in the area of friendliness.


I also believe that there are innumerable Heroes in this forum and in Scouting today. BW, I would like to think of you as one of them. I know that I appreciate your many insights and knowledge, even when I disagree. Hopefully your work reflects much of what you say so I am going to believe it.


Heroes, not Saints, are those that have taken only one step beyond that which is the ordinary life, others have taken many more. Fuzzy





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These are your words verbatim; please check what you have written. FB


"While many of your facts are accurate one for certain is not. I did not at any time say that Seton hired West."



"Where do you get this stuff from Fuzzy? It was Seton who hired West, I never said they were unecessary in fact quite the opposite I said the were "important". But are they heros? That depends on your personal definition. They were the right people to do their job at the right time. Historic? I would say historical. the man who has more to do with the spirit of the BSA program today is arguably William Hillcourt.


What any of this has to do with the topic of the thread is beyond me."

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