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21 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Good article ...

  • It should have dived into "Natural Selection" further.  Traditional jobs probably align better with odds of having more children.  Example ... The average female forester / fireman / policeman probably has fewer kids than the average teacher / nurse / HR staff.  Generation over generation, this is a feedback loop that naturally continues the separation.
  • Should have dived into gender hormones more.  Those hormones affect body development causing the average male to be 10% to 20% stronger / taller / bigger than the average female.  As we all want to do jobs where we have an advantage, this ability difference causes a gender alignment for physically demanding jobs.

 

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I was extremely dismayed to discover that BSA had created a DEI group, and have considered pulling my son out of Scouting because of it.  Especially when they started pushing the new Eagle-required me

There is no doubt that our history has led to where we all are today.  The past created our present.  So a lot of people today are behind the eight-ball from the outset.  It will take generations to r

I fully expected Scouting to go co-ed when they started having girl troops. On one hand, I believe that we are in an era of equality now and not only do girls deserve to have the same opportuniti

Thanks for sharing.  More perspective on the evolving issue.  I find myself wondering though is these suggestions are universal, or seriously tied to a  small population or culture?  There are examples historically of seemingly very opposite populations, especially with the early matriarchal groups dominated by strong women who appear to have been the dicision makers.  

I tend to think that the basic ability for women to do most things is tempered only by their physical limitations, and that their mental capabilities will often overcome those challenges, either by actual effort to change certain genetic factors, or by creating aides to simply overcome those physical challenges.  So it seems to me that girls will adjust, as will boys, given the opportunity and as little adult interference as possible.  JMO of course, as am not an expert, only a longtime observer.

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I want to clarify here:  I am not saying there are not differences between boys and girls.  Of course there are.

What I'm saying is that with regards to activities in scouting, there is no difference between boys and girls.

In other words, there is nothing in the Scout Oath or Law or scouting activities like hiking, camping, watersports, etc. where your sex makes any significant difference.

There is essentially one prerequisite for participating in scouting:  enjoying outdoors activities.  If you enjoy outdoor activities, then scouting will appeal to you, regardless of your sex.

 

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1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Seems mostly differences based on environment. Boys and girls are wired different from each other and are again wired different after puberty. Environment may force habits against the natural instinct, but the instinct is still there. Example is that our cultural expect behavioral habits of not indulging to our sex drive at inappropriate times. That is called character. 

Strange discussion here. Seems either everyone wants to make the genders equal, or they believe the genders are already equal. That is not how to solve issues created by gender behavior differences. And, the genders should be proud to be different from the other gender. It's OK.

And, why is this so much the girls. I've read several recent articles about boys struggling mentally because the culture is trying to redefine them to be less masculine. while at the same time push girls to be more equal by acting more masculine. Even on this forum  someone reported adults cheating on skills scores at Camporees so the girls would wine. Others here bragged about a focus on accelerating the advancement part of their program so girls could get rank faster. Why? That is not the Scouting program.

I will throw one more behavior I have observed over the years and is a real problem for the BSA. That vast majority of Wolf and  Bear leaders are female. But, most do not want to be Webelos leaders for one simple reason, outdoors activates. What ever the reason, it is a gender situation with the result of a huge drop in youth membership.

This recent discussion started because are offended when I said genders learn better in scouting when they are mixed. So what? Girls can join now. Boy growth is less important than being culturally progressive. The choice has been made. 

Barry

 

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43 minutes ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

I want to clarify here:  I am not saying there are not differences between boys and girls.  Of course there are.

What I'm saying is that with regards to activities in scouting, there is no difference between boys and girls.

In other words, there is nothing in the Scout Oath or Law or scouting activities like hiking, camping, watersports, etc. where your sex makes any significant difference.

There is essentially one prerequisite for participating in scouting:  enjoying outdoors activities.  If you enjoy outdoor activities, then scouting will appeal to you, regardless of your sex.

 

Agreed, but Scouting is more than just the activities.

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Posted (edited)

Scouting can certainly provide an equality of opportunity for males and females.  The program, as currently written, is essentially gender-blind.  And I concur wholeheartedly that all should be given the opportunity.

However, you can never achieve equality of outcomes in any field of endeavor.  Outcomes are based on opportunities, individual talents, desires, attitudes, behaviors, and probably a few other things I cannot think of at the moment.

I would posit that mixing genders within Scouting changes the outcomes negatively for males.  Or, maybe a better way to say that is, you get better outcomes for the majority of males when Scouting in a single gender environment (and when they are led and mentored by men).  This is entirely an opinion, yes.  But it sure seems that way to me as a father of a daughter and a son (both Eagle Scouts), and having been a Boy Scout leader and a Girl Scout leader, a Scoutmaster for 15 years, and having been a military officer for 2.5 decades, watching and mentoring males and females as they grow and become more proficient in their careers...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iudkPi4_sY&ab_channel=Skavlan

Beginning @ 7:15 "The more egalitarian your state, the bigger the personality differences between men and women."

@9:50 "If you minimize the cultural differences, you maximize the biological differences."

Edited by InquisitiveScouter
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5 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I haven't been watching this thread (was pretty active this weekend in and out of scouts).  However, I do think neuroscience does clearly indicate brains are different between boys and girls ... even at birth ... and they definitely develop differently.  Is that due to epigenetics, genes or hormones ... the answer is likely yes.  Regardless, we do know there are differences in brains between genders.  Now, it doesn't mean that every female or every male fit a single gender specific behavior.  I think the science indicates that differences in behaviors in a single gender exceed the differences between genders.   However, if you talk in generalities, I think you can say there are differences in the "average" boy and "average" girl and their behaviors.  I am not aware of the same type of studies that would point to race or religion in terms of brain development.

I do agree we have to be careful in this area.  I think there are girls that are more into risk taking and adventure than boys and boys that are better in terms of organizing than girls (I see it in my own Troop).  However, in general, there are gender differences.  How we address those is up to BSA and the units that implement the program.

 

You're talking about making assessments about what is optimal for boys vs. girls based on views that are  discriminatory and offensive. Differences in behaviors is one thing; claiming differences in skills and/or character development to justify excluding girls is another thing entirely. Believing that girls are neurotypically prewired to plan menus is akin to saying a woman's place is in the kitchen and she likes it there. If you don't see the problem with that then I am here to say -- you need to see the problem with that. 
 

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4 minutes ago, yknot said:

You're talking about making assessments about what is optimal for boys vs. girls based on views that are  discriminatory and offensive. Differences in behaviors is one thing; claiming differences in skills and/or character development to justify excluding girls is another thing entirely. Believing that girls are neurotypically prewired to plan menus is akin to saying a woman's place is in the kitchen and she likes it there. If you don't see the problem with that then I am here to say -- you need to see the problem with that. 
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEDuVF7kiPU&ab_channel=JordanBPeterson

@yknot, it seems you are twisting @Eagle1993 's words a bit.

Edited by InquisitiveScouter
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13 minutes ago, yknot said:

You're talking about making assessments about what is optimal for boys vs. girls based on views that are  discriminatory and offensive. Differences in behaviors is one thing; claiming differences in skills and/or character development to justify excluding girls is another thing entirely. Believing that girls are neurotypically prewired to plan menus is akin to saying a woman's place is in the kitchen and she likes it there. If you don't see the problem with that then I am here to say -- you need to see the problem with that. 
 

Wow, that's quite a leap from what was really stated. Girls are wired differently than boys and and difference makes growth more challenging for boys when they are mixed with girls in a patrol method environment. 

The question isn't whether boys and girls can mix in scouting activities, of course they can. The question is whether benefit of girls and boys scouting together is worth the less growth for the boys. 

Barry

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39 minutes ago, yknot said:

Believing that girls are neurotypically prewired to plan menus is akin to saying a woman's place is in the kitchen and she likes it there.

I never said this ... and I don't think anyone has.  If you are going to debate a topic, please do not utilize a strawman argument.  

I personally support having girls in BSA.  My daughter was in Cub Scouts and as of now plans to join Scouts BSA.  I have worked with girls in BSA and have found most of them to fit well into the program.  My daughter is also a girl scout and has enjoyed that program (and GSUSA has been very adamant about keeping their program single gender). 

That said, I think @Eagledad has valid points and there is neuroscience that indicates male and female brains are different.  Also, I do think there is valid concerns that boys are having greater issues in today's society than girls and we should consider the impact on them by opening up BSA to girls.  I fully support boys only units and will be interested to see how they differ long term that coed ones.

No one thinks (almost no one) GSUSA is evil or a bigot for thinking their program should be for girls only.   I will also say GSUSA discourages male leaders.  They want female leaders leading all girl units and are open about it.  They see this as key for the development of girls.  I think there is an argument to be made that male leaders and all boy units could benefit young boys in a similar manner. 

I have been impressed with our female leaders in my Scouts BSA unit.  They have gone to Philmont, canoe trips and have been critical to many of our outdoor activities. I personally have included both girls as scouts and female leaders in our Scout unit(s) and will continue to do so.  However, the experience I had as a scout (with only boys in our Troop and male leaders) does seem different than what I see in my current Troop.  Is it better or worse?  I'm not sure, but it is different.

The one aspect I believe is nonnegotiable is that scouters who are not fans of girls being in BSA is that they follow the scout law when interacting with girls in the program.  In my experience, 99% of scouters and scouts do that regardless of what opinion they may hold.

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