More Play

[Eagledad 2777]

29 minutes ago, MattR said:

I'm going to push back on this a bit. I've met plenty of parents and kids that would have really enjoyed the free range part of scouts and yet had no desire to join. It seems to me the perception of scouts is more organized activity than make up your own fun. Advancement can easily be seen as everyone fulfilling nearly identical rrequirements. An expensive uniform that is used for meetings and travel is, well, uniform.

The idea that scouts can choose their own activities is buried way down in what anyone sees from the outside.

If that's the perception then is there any wonder why we struggle with parents that want highly structured activities? Maybe scouts is attracting the wrong kids and parents.

I don't know. The perception is outdoors fun. Just about all of scout marketing is outdoor activities. But I agree that the training has the perception of organized activities with very little balance of scout run. 

The point of my post is that scouters with a youth scouting experience are more likely to let scouts choose their own activities. Or at the very least, not focus program on the advancement list. As a youth, they remember what was fun, and not so fun. So, they jump start to that part of the experiences. 

Barry

[fred8033 1591]

2 hours ago, MattR said:

I'm going to push back on this a bit. ...  It seems to me the perception of scouts is more organized activity than make up your own fun. ...  The idea that scouts can choose their own activities is buried way down in what anyone sees from the outside. ... If that's the perception then is there any wonder why we struggle with parents that want highly structured activities? Maybe scouts is attracting the wrong kids and parents.

I agree.  There has always been a mismatch between perceptions and what works; a mismatch in many directions.   It's important to also remember that scouting has always a very structured program.  

I'm very much of the school that scouts often learn the most in scouting during their free time or the less-structured program time.  Scouts loses it's value when it looks or smells like a classroom.

Perhaps, much of this is in the eye of the beholder.  I don't mind structure and program.  IMHO, it gets over the top when it's all-about working a legalistic checklist of requirements.  At some point, it moves from fun to nausea.  

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by fred8033

[Eagledad 2777]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

I agree.  There has always been a mismatch between perceptions and what works; a mismatch in many directions.   It's important to also remember that scouting has always a very structured program.  

I agree. The struggles come from lack of understanding the purpose of the structure. 

The scout program competes with two divergent basic instincts. The prepubescent instinct is to play. Playing is the practice of survival that theoretically prepares the youth to compete in their adult life. The adult instinct is to compete in status. The higher status in the herd provides better benefits of life.

Just about everyone has these instincts to some degree. The struggle for scouting is the youths drive to play doesn't fit in with the adults drive to compete. If the adult had the youth scouting experience, their fond memories of play balance or humbles their instinct to compete.

You can see why the adult without youth memories is going to use their instinct to compete for driving the program. What are the ways to compete in the troop program? Advancement and Leadership. Unfortunately, advancement and leadership are the easier and most apparent methods of competing in the program, which is why they often take front stage.

When the youth drive for fun is balanced with the adult drive to compete, the adult will blend competition with the fun for the goal of scout growth. The structure of Elections and patrol social order are some of the challenges of making right and wrong decisions. So a healthy program uses the balance of the youth instincts and adult instinct for growth. We just have to understand where to balance.

Barry

Edited March 17, 2022 by Eagledad

[fred8033 1591]

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

The structure of Elections and patrol social order are some of the challenges of making right and wrong decisions.

LOL ... brings back good memories.   Our troops elections were always chaotic.  It often drove some adults crazy.  They'd want forms and processes of submitting your name in advance weeks in advance.  Ours was our SPL asking who wants to run for a position.  The SPL would ask why do you want to be the new SPL.  Each would get their turn to speak.  Then scouts would write on whatever paper they have who they wanted.  ... It looked chaotic, but it was fun.  ... and it was less work for the adults.

Edited March 17, 2022 by fred8033

[SSScout 1615]

CSDC:  Four days of more or less directed skill/knowledge gaining. The Pavilion leaders hopefully made the Lessons"  more fun than classroom (" Double ended, bi-color Peruvian practice rope, harvested at the PEAK of maturity...."), making sure the fun was tempered with safe operating rules (Archery?).

Last day:   Water Festival.  Slip and slide. Mud pit tug of war.  Icey pops.  After opening ceremony and announcements, Den rotations were rather less regulated. The horn blew very 45 minutes , but hey, if your Den liked what they were doing, we didn't care if you stuck around at the sponge throw a little longer....

Lady comes up to me and says " I don't understand!?  Where is my boy? Where is the Den?  It is too chaotic... How can they keep order here?  " I asked, what Den are you with?  She told me, I looked up the schedule (such as it was), pointed to the site and there they were. I asked her,  "are there any sad faces there?"  She responded, " Nnnoooo...." I said, " has anyone gotten hurt?"  She said "nnnoooo..."  I asked "Has your Cub complained any about the past week?"  She said" I don't think so".  I smiled and told her "then we have succeded.  I might suggest you go and enjoy watching  your Cub get dirty and wet. "  She looked at me as if I was crazy, and walked away shaking her head.... 

 

[MattR 2659]

@Eagledad, I can't doubt your views, they're what you've seen. What I've seen are plenty of friends that would have thrived with their kids in scouts, that were great about letting and encouraging their kids to try and fail, but had no interest in having their kids in scouts. It's true that the BSA's advertising shows a lot of outdoors but I've never seen those ads in other than links in email I'm sent. Instead, try Google boy scouts and look at the images tab. It's almost entirely scouts in uniform saluting the flag. While I have no problem with scouts saluting the flag, it doesn't conjure fun in the outdoors, or playing. Maybe the BSA is trying to change that perception but they've been failing at that for a long time.

I agree that the BSA's program, when done right is a balance between fun and purpose, but the people it attracts and the methods it talks about don't really mention fun. Honestly, why isn't fun a method? If I read the list of methods, without any experience of scouts, I wouldn't have put my kids in it. At best it sounds like a classroom for outdoor skills. Go to the BSA's website where they describe the methods. Search for "fun" and all you'll find is "fund raisers." Maybe we struggle with so many new parents because they actually read the manual.

[SSScout 1615]

??  https://troopleader.scouting.org/a-game-with-a-purpose/     ??

[FireStone 423]

On 3/17/2022 at 10:21 AM, MattR said:

I'm going to push back on this a bit. I've met plenty of parents and kids that would have really enjoyed the free range part of scouts and yet had no desire to join. It seems to me the perception of scouts is more organized activity than make up your own fun. Advancement can easily be seen as everyone fulfilling nearly identical rrequirements. An expensive uniform that is used for meetings and travel is, well, uniform.

The idea that scouts can choose their own activities is buried way down in what anyone sees from the outside.

If that's the perception then is there any wonder why we struggle with parents that want highly structured activities? Maybe scouts is attracting the wrong kids and parents.

But we're really talking about structure within a structure. Within another structure, really. The Pack has it's own structure, dens, etc. We show up at camp and that in itself is structured, being there at a certain time, in a certain place, in a specific campsite, meal times, etc. And then within that we add in scheduled activities, be at the BB range at X time, then we're hiking here, then we're doing lunch, then archery...

I think the mix of structure and free play is what works best for the widest array of families. We're not going to the neighborhood park and letting them loose on the playground for 3 hours. Just showing up at camp is more structured than most of the things kids can do around town. We're going on planned and structured camping trips, with some planned activities, but also some free play time worked in.

I do all of the marketing and promotional stuff for my Pack, and for several years the slogan we were getting from National to use was "Build Your Adventure". There is a certain free-range DIY element to the program we are selling. If families are coming into this expecting either more structure or more free-range, I think in both scenarios the families got the wrong impression of us.