Council finances

[Muttsy 137]

On 1/7/2022 at 7:08 PM, SiouxRanger said:

And then there is the problem of the Scout Law, Rule 1:  Trustworthy.

Many of those in this forum have up-close and personal experiences with local executives, local boards, etc. I do not. 

As an outsider, and I have seen this before with other not-for-profits. To quote Pacino's character from Scent of a Woman, "when the going gets tough, some guys run and other guys stay." My point is this: Are these local execs and volunteer board members with none of their skin in the game, the types that will run or the ones that stay. 

If these Locals file or even thing about filing Ch.11 these boards will have to sign off the verified Ch 11 Petition. Now they have stepped in to it with both feet and once inside the cockroach motel, it is very hard to exit. They will be facing exhaustive discovery including proctological examinations of their actions including possible fraudulent asset transfers. D and O liability insurance does not cover fraud or intentional acts. What more devastating facts will emerge about their involvement in child sexual abuse concealment. There are board minutes, emails, memos that are likely to contain explosive information. 

If you were the Sackler family in Purdue and had 9-10B of skin in the game, you would probably stay not run. 

But what about these guys? Especially the ones that are facing 150x more in liabilities than assets? There is nothing left to save except your own necks. 

My money says they fold like a cheap pup tent. 

[InquisitiveScouter 1653]

11 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

My money says they fold like a cheap pup tent. 

Or they have no liability, and stay in it to ride the gravy train of a $200K+ salary until the end...

[vol_scouter 365]

@Muttsy  Since the mid 1990's. I have served on the Executive Board of my local council and for part of that time was a member of the Executive Committee.  During the nearly 30 years, never has a child sexual abuse case been a topic, discussed, or otherwise been a part of the meeting.  The BSA Chapter 11 has been and still is with the issues being discussed only in the aggregate.  Never have I been in discussions concerning a particular case of child abuse.  We have not tried to conceal assets or make shells to shield them.  From my chats with others across the country, my experience is the norm rather as the only exception of which I am aware is the Middle Tennessee Council as has been discussed.  Note that I am not claiming that it might not have happened in other councils but that I have not heard about it.   Scout Executives and Executive Board members tend to be risk adverse in such matters.

My prediction is that the local councils, Scout Executives, and Executive Board members will stay and fight in every legal way possible.  They will argue that the Scout Camps are core to the mission of the not for profit and the office buildings are likewise needed to deliver the mission.  My feeling is that the attorneys will make a lot of money on both sides of the courtroom but that the claimants will benefit little from separating the local councils from the BSA Chapter 11.

[1980Scouter 99]

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Or they have no liability, and stay in it to ride the gravy train of a $200K+ salary until the end...

My thoughts exactly.  The SE's and other high up national execs have to realize the ship is likely sinking now. Especially after this next hearing if it goes as thought. 

They are paid very well for their job.(at the expense of camp maintenance and other needs but that is another whole thread)

Why not get everything you can out of BSA and then find another less paying job when BSA dies? 

Most execs have decades of service to BSA and have moved around over time to get where they are now. 

The old guard will ride off into the sunset....

[mrjohns2 577]

4 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

During the nearly 30 years, never has a child sexual abuse case been a topic, discussed, or otherwise been a part of the meeting. 

From the "ineligible volunteer" files that I read these were handled by the Scout Executive, region, and their appointed "review board" for the case in question. One or 2 of the cases in question were from the mid 1980's. I knew both one of Scouters on the review board and the SE at the time. I think these were kept in pretty small circles and not heard by the larger board. 

[Muttsy 137]

My understanding is the LC execs salaries are paid by National. Is that wrong? If true, who pays those salaries when BSA liquidates? Do the locals have the cash flow to pay those salaries and benefits with BSA gone? Under what authority do the local councils have to continue to operate absent the charter from National which will be defunct?

[InquisitiveScouter 1653]

5 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

My understanding is the LC execs salaries are paid by National. Is that wrong? If true, who pays those salaries when BSA liquidates? Do the locals have the cash flow to pay those salaries and benefits with BSA gone? Under what authority do the local councils have to continue to operate absent the charter from National which will be defunct?

Oh no...all salary and benefits paid out of the funds from the local council.  You can see this on any IRS Form 990 for your local council.  If you need a link, post your council, and I'll try to put in here.

[vol_scouter 365]

1 minute ago, Muttsy said:

My understanding is the LC execs salaries are paid by National. Is that wrong? If true, who pays those salaries when BSA liquidates? Do the locals have the cash flow to pay those salaries and benefits with BSA gone? Under what authority do the local councils have to continue to operate absent the charter from National which will be defunct?

The local councils set and pay the Scout Executive salary and benefits as well as for the entire staff.  There is a single HR department for the BSA so that retirement, health insurance, and other such benefits allow a large group for purchasing power.  Phone allowances, expenses, travel, any transportation allowances are handled and paid locally.  

The BSA has pay bands for positions that the local executive boards are to follow, and they usually do, but not always.  Local executive boards run the local councils.

There have been policies regarding the procedures for handling child abuse and other issues.  The Scout Executives have considerable ability to remove a volunteer from Scouting.  There is an appeals process that involves regional level volunteers, but most appeals are not successful from my understanding.

[Muttsy 137]

2 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

Under what authority do the local councils have to continue to operate absent the charter from National which will be defunct?

Again, what about this little hiccup?

[vol_scouter 365]

Another point of clarification, until just recently (last 1-3 years), all registration fees went directly to the national council with none going to the local council.  Some units (packs, troop, crews, ships, etc) collect some extra that remains in the unit, but it is frowned upon.  Summer camps, camporees, and fund-raising supplies the local councils with operating funds.  Loss of summer camps could be a death blow to some councils.

[T2Eagle 902]

27 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

My understanding is the LC execs salaries are paid by National. Is that wrong? If true, who pays those salaries when BSA liquidates? Do the locals have the cash flow to pay those salaries and benefits with BSA gone? Under what authority do the local councils have to continue to operate absent the charter from National which will be defunct?

Local salaries are all covered locally.  The cash NEVER flows from National down.

The majority of the people on my LC's board are drawn from the same pool of folks who also serve on other local charity and organization boards: health care systems, other non-profits, local colleges, local government, senior execs from local businesses, law firms, financial services, etc.  I can make a good argument that everybody being from the same pool is a poor organizational design for great decision making, but these are not people who are unfamiliar with being board members or the idea of understanding their own personal liability.

My experience is that as a governing body they do view themselves and operate themselves as distinct and independent corporations and organizations.  Most of them would try to continue to function even in the event of a big collapse at National.  

Edited January 9, 2022 by T2Eagle

[vol_scouter 365]

2 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

Again, what about this little hiccup?

I did not say that, but the local councils are separate 501(c)3 not for profit corporations who are in the business of out of school child development.  My feeling is that they will continue with their mission without a national council or charter but will not be able to use BSA registered intellectual property.  They can continue to have camps, fund raise, have units and outdoor activities.  Just because the BSA no longer exists will not make them go out of business.

[Muttsy 137]

2 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

They can continue to have camps, fund raise, have units and outdoor activities.  Just because the BSA no longer exists will not make them go out of business.

Perhaps but are they viable without the BSA brand? Isn't the BSA IP critical to the locals? How do you recruit in schools, seek community support find organizations to sponsor troops, fund raise. I'm not seeing how that is a viable strategy from a financial perspective. 

[vol_scouter 365]

Just now, Muttsy said:

Perhaps but are they viable without the BSA brand? Isn't the BSA IP critical to the locals? How do you recruit in schools, seek community support find organizations to sponsor troops, fund raise. I'm not seeing how that is a viable strategy from a financial perspective. 

That certainly would make things challenging but the volunteers are determined to continue to serve youth.  There is much public support, and I could see the councils surviving though it will be challenging.  At least the executive board on which I serve will want to go forward.

[T2Eagle 902]

49 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

Again, what about this little hiccup?

This is a pretty big misunderstanding some folks have.  LCs don't exist at the sufferance of National.  Their permission to use BSA IP is tied to their ongoing renewal of their charters, but if National disappeared tomorrow my LCs legal standing as a non profit corporation permitted by and governed by the laws of my state would not change.  The property the LC owns belongs to the LC, and no they have never signed a charter that would hand it over to National at National's request or demand.

Edited January 9, 2022 by T2Eagle