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Youth Protection, 18-20 year olds, women leaders


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I have to admit this is one rule I'd modify. I can't see how letting an 18 yo scout stay with his friends is a problem. Without friendships scouting is a bust. Lack of friendships is the main reason s

This thread has gone from 18 yo scouts to following rules to bad beer humor to women scouters to substance abuse and a strange reference to Rabbinic Judaism. It's New Year's eve. If there were ev

3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Loved your post, but don't quite get what you mean with this.  Elaborate, please?

Case in point. When I was a scout, a young ASM brought a bottle of alcohol (Iron City, to be exact) to camp. A scout found it and drank it. The committee dismissed the ASM and suspended the scout. Today, I am certain that legal action would be taken against our CO for corrupting the morals of a minor. I suspect that BSA’s “even outside of scouting” stipulations come from such litigation. As a consequence, hardship is foisted on young adults with high integrity because of young adults who lack integrity.

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8 hours ago, qwazse said:

Case in point. When I was a scout, a young ASM brought a bottle of alcohol (Iron City, to be exact) to camp. A scout found it and drank it. The committee dismissed the ASM and suspended the scout. Today, I am certain that legal action would be taken against our CO for corrupting the morals of a minor. I suspect that BSA’s “even outside of scouting” stipulations come from such litigation. As a consequence, hardship is foisted on young adults with high integrity because of young adults who lack integrity.

That's awful. I mean Iron City is dredged from the bottom of the Monongahela River.

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<Laughing out loud> Miners and maulers were not finicky. You'd have to travel in time to find a steelworker like my son who preferred crap craft beers instead. My dad, the main distributor of IC in the county, then retired, was the troop's CC at the time. 

20 hours ago, 69RoadRunner said:

That's awful. I mean Iron City is dredged from the bottom of the Monongahela River.

13 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

That was my first thought too.  Your ASMs need better mentors.

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45 minutes ago, qwazse said:

<Laughing out loud> Miners and maulers were not finicky. You'd have to travel in time to find a steelworker like my son who preferred crap craft beers instead. My dad, the main distributor of IC in the county, then retired, was the troop's CC at the time. 

Bud, Miller, Coors or any mass produced, low taste beer is better than Iron City. IC Light is drinkable.

And IPAs are garbage.

I'm starting to think I took us off topic, but no regrets. I think I have some Mad Elf left...

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On 12/27/2021 at 9:03 PM, 69RoadRunner said:

I've had several events where I've struggled to get 2 adults, period. The moms don't come camping. There is zero chance I'd get any to do Philmont.

Take a look at summer camps. What percentage of adult leaders there are women? It's very small.

I've asked. I'm not in any way opposed, but I only have 1 that's ever come. Another stayed 1 night when we were desperate.

We had more interest from women then men for our Philmont trip. We had 3 women go with two crews.  We also have several women go to our summer camps.  
 

When I took over my pack, there were zero women adult leaders and only 24 scouts.  I reached out to moms and built up a core of women leaders and our pack expanded greatly. 
 

I do agree in general men are more interested in camping; however, I have found plenty of women are as well.  You have to find them, talk with them directly and make an environment where they feel welcome and then more and more will join and help.

It could be we just lucked into groups of women who like the outdoors… but I also think even having one or two active will encourage women who are on the fence to give it a try.

 

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1 hour ago, 69RoadRunner said:

Bud, Miller, Coors or any mass produced, low taste beer is better than Iron City. IC Light is drinkable.

And IPAs are garbage.

I'm starting to think I took us off topic, but no regrets. I think I have some Mad Elf left...

I have no further comment except to say that:

  • It was quite easy for Dad to quit drinking, at Mom's request.
  • Neither my brothers nor I, having worked the business around the summers of our 11th year, drink but for rare occasions, and it when we do certainly is not beer.

If there were Totin' Chits for alcohol use, we'd have the squarest corners, and I'd give Dad's well-timed mid-summer exposure to return cases with spilled half-used bottles of stale IC the credit.

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1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

We had more interest from women then men for our Philmont trip. We had 3 women go with two crews.  We also have several women go to our summer camps.  
 

When I took over my pack, there were zero women adult leaders and only 24 scouts.  I reached out to moms and built up a core of women leaders and our pack expanded greatly. 
 

I do agree in general men are more interested in camping; however, I have found plenty of women are as well.  You have to find them, talk with them directly and make an environment where they feel welcome and then more and more will join and help.

It could be we just lucked into groups of women who like the outdoors… but I also think even having one or two active will encourage women who are on the fence to give it a try.

 

I think it's a function of unit/community culture and what it is that you want to encourage. I've looked out over district roundtables and seen plenty of women involved at the cub level as den leaders who camp and do all things outdoors -- some more gung ho than others but still very willing to be part of the outdoor program. Then at Troop most of them vanish to serve mostly in committee positions.  There is a lot of discouragement, some overt but some very subtle and not obvious to people who believe they are otherwise being open to women.  

I agree it's a smaller percentage of women vs. men who are interested in this but to me it appears if there is a lack it is more due to them being an untapped or ill developed resource. Plenty of women happily camp with their packs and then their Webelos/AOL dens was my initial point. Why do they vanish in many units? 

 

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Because many units still adhere to the "old boy" standard.  And, as is obvious on these various Scouting sites, there are still many mired in the past and some that are still misoginistic.  Sad, but true.  Half of the leaders at summer camp now are female though, and t that is still mostly boy units.    I personally, even though some might think I would be in the past "attitude" hope National will climb out of the dark and realize that coed units for Scout age are practical and also will lend themselves to growth.  Many small units could add a patrol of girls, while still maintaining proper leadership for YP.  But it could salvage the unit that is struggling for members, like our own.  JMHO of course.  Happy New Year soon.

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  • RememberSchiff changed the title to Youth Protection, 18-20 year olds, women leaders

Well, to sum up my views on this, 18-21 year olds should not have the YPT restriction outside of scouting. I might make that for friends within 2 years of age of the now adult scout. This is similar to the relatively new tenting age restriction.

It would be great to have more women involved. That is separate from the sexist YPT restriction that is different for female and male adult leaders. Having more restrictive rules for men than you have for women is sexist. I also find it insulting.

And I do think those who make these rules don't consider that they are imposing them on volunteers and I doubt many of them have to live with all of these rules.

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On 12/28/2021 at 4:58 AM, qwazse said:

Case in point. When I was a scout, a young ASM brought a bottle of alcohol (Iron City, to be exact) to camp. A scout found it and drank it. The committee dismissed the ASM and suspended the scout. Today, I am certain that legal action would be taken against our CO for corrupting the morals of a minor. I suspect that BSA’s “even outside of scouting” stipulations come from such litigation. As a consequence, hardship is foisted on young adults with high integrity because of young adults who lack integrity.

The usage of alcohol by abusers to entice victims for sexual pleasure/perversion was one of the most common methods used

When I read follow on posts that came after this where only the merits of the brand and other brands are discussed but not one condemnation I wonder if this practice of taking alcohol on campouts by adults still occur.

On 12/28/2021 at 1:27 PM, 69RoadRunner said:

That's awful. I mean Iron City is dredged from the bottom of the Monongahela River.

On 12/28/2021 at 8:42 PM, T2Eagle said:

That was my first thought too.  Your ASMs need better mentors.

22 hours ago, qwazse said:

My dad, the main distributor of IC in the county, then retired, was the troop's CC at the time. 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

When I read follow on posts that came after this where only the merits of the brand and other brands are discussed but not one condemnation I wonder if this practice of taking alcohol on campouts by adults still occur.

It is definitely not allowed and I have never seen it.  You can’t even take alcohol on a camp property even if it is a private family rental.  Smoking is not allowed around scouts either. 

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1 minute ago, Eagle1993 said:

It is definitely not allowed and I have never seen it.  You can’t even take alcohol on a camp property even if it is a private family rental.  Smoking is not allowed around scouts either. 

It's not allowed but it definitely occurs. Sometimes it's obvious sometimes it's just suspected. 

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19 hours ago, yknot said:

I think it's a function of unit/community culture and what it is that you want to encourage. I've looked out over district roundtables and seen plenty of women involved at the cub level as den leaders who camp and do all things outdoors -- some more gung ho than others but still very willing to be part of the outdoor program. Then at Troop most of them vanish to serve mostly in committee positions.  There is a lot of discouragement, some overt but some very subtle and not obvious to people who believe they are otherwise being open to women.  

I agree it's a smaller percentage of women vs. men who are interested in this but to me it appears if there is a lack it is more due to them being an untapped or ill developed resource. Plenty of women happily camp with their packs and then their Webelos/AOL dens was my initial point. Why do they vanish in many units?

I think at least part of the issue is the general difference between Cubs and Scouts and finding women who can leave "mom" at home.  My experience has been that moms have a significantly harder time dealing with the chaos of "scout-led" without wanting to step in to help/comfort/fix whatever problems come up.  At least, that's what a number of the moms in my troop have said about themselves.  Of course, in my old Cub pack, we didn't have many moms going on camp-outs either.  Even when moms were the ones helping at den meetings and doing most of the Cub activities, it was almost always the dads that ended up on the campouts.  Though summer camp was a little different.  I think the male:female ratio at summer camp was more like 40:60 rather than the 20:80 we would get on regular campouts.

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