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24 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

What real changes to YPT? 

Did you read the TCC's proposal (which was adopted as part of the RSA and into Plan 5.5.)? It is pretty clear and on this I believe the TCC and Coalition are 100% in agreement on. The BSA has been allowed to handpick their experts, hide information from them (and there's a TRACK RECORD of BSA simply hiding from their hand picked experts data on abuse) etc.

This is the current proposal under Plan 5.5. The BSA doesn't get to hand pick its experts anymore to have them parrot back to the BSA "You are perfect just the way you are!"

"1. The Debtors shall form a committee (the “Child Protection Committee”) of members from the BSA, Local Councils, the Tort Claimants’ Committee, and the Coalition (including survivors). The functions of the Child Protection Committee include the following:

a. No later than six months after the Effective Date, the BSA will present to the Committee on the BSA’s current Youth Protection Program (the “Youth Protection Program”). The BSA will report to the Child Protection Committee regarding the Youth Protection Program and any changes thereto on an annual basis for a period of three years following the Effective Date.

b. Following that presentation, the BSA and Child Protection Committee will work with an entity engaged by the BSA that is selected with the consultation of the Child Protection Committee that is not currently affiliated with the BSA to evaluate the Youth Protection Program (the “Evaluating Entity”). The Evaluating Entity will have expertise in the prevention of youth sexual abuse.

(i) Any evaluation will be comprehensive in nature and include input from current BSA volunteers and professionals, survivors of sexual abuse while involved with Scouting, the members of the Child Protection Committee, and the Evaluating Entity.

(ii) The Evaluating Entity will report to the Child Protection Committee assessing the current Youth Protection Program and make specific recommendations for reasonable improvements to the Youth Protection Program that may include mechanisms for the elimination of abuse and accurate and annual reporting regarding the results of the Youth Protection Program, including confirmed instances of sexual abuse that is made available to the public (the “Prospective Reporting”).

(iii) The BSA will engage with the Evaluating Entity, and the Child Protection Committee, and will take appropriate steps as necessary to improve the Program. Changes to the Youth Protection Program will be reported on the BSA’s Youth Protection Program website and training will be reasonably adjusted to reflect changes.

c. The BSA will propose and the Child Protection Committee will consider a protocol for the review and publication of information in the Volunteer Screening Database and the Prospective Reporting, which will take into account factors including:

(i) the desire to make public credibly identified perpetrators of sexual abuse in Scouting;

(ii) adequate protections for survivor identities;

(iii) consideration regarding the protection of third parties, including survivor family members and volunteers; (iv) a notification process regarding any publication;

(v) issues related to privacy and liability related to publication; and

(vi) the potential appointment or retention of an appropriate neutral party to supervise the evaluation and review of the Volunteer Screening Database (the “Neutral Supervisor”). If the BSA and Child Protection Committee are unable to reach an agreement on the above protocol, the Neutral Supervisor shall mediate the dispute to resolution. In accordance with the process outlined above, information from the Volunteer Screening Database and Prospective Reporting shall be published annually after agreement among the parties or determination by the Neutral Supervisor

d. After consultation and recommendations from the Evaluating Entity, the Child Protection Committee may propose and the BSA will in good faith consider other issues relating to child protection, including:

(i) special BSA Scouting programs for survivors; and

(ii) participation and leadership in a comprehensive reporting program to include other youth-serving organizations.

e. The BSA will engage with the Child Protection Committee and consider all appropriate measures proposed by the Child Protection Committee to improve transparency and accountability with respect to any future instances of sexual abuse, including the dissemination of information relating to abuse statistics, consistent with practices of other youth-serving organizations, including what information may be publically available on the BSA’s website."

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OK, I hid a couple of comments that I felt were a bit too descriptive for an open Scouting forum.  While they may be historically accurate, they felt a bit uncomfortable for me. I have asked the other

I work with several national staff and national OA on a regular basis, I can guarantee they would want to know and it would cause an immediate reaction, particularly given the current headlines regard

Turning a blind eye? That is more than a little insulting to people who care about scouting and scouts and are trying to make sure things are done right.  And you become indignant toward peopl

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14 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

What real changes to YPT?

As with many other things, we’ve run this path down to bedrock. In fact, a long list of improvements to consider was made, the TCC included theirs in the non-monetary components of the Plan and CS and others have referenced key and critical things done by others that BSA is not doing. I don’t see this as mudslinging in the least, when “real changes” have been thoroughly discussed. Were you here for all of that? Not poking...

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12 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

accurate and annual reporting regarding the results of the Youth Protection Program, including confirmed instances of sexual abuse that is made available to the public (the “Prospective Reporting”).

I am not a victim, so I don't want to purport to say what a victim would or would not want BSA to do in the future.

As a leader, I want BSA to finally come clean and report the abuse. Stop hiding it. Stop pretending it doesn't exist. Report it. Admit it.

My own humble suggesting was something like what colleges and universities have to do through the Clery Act.

For example, right now I can pull up data on Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter, Negligent manslaughter, Rape, Fondling, Incest, Statutory rape, Robbery, Aggravated assault, Burglary, Motor vehicle theft, and Arson.

I can find this out for a particular college OR a particular campus of that college.

I can then see how many resulted in arrests, disciplinary actions, unfounded crimes, and fire statistics (?)

https://ope.ed.gov/campussafety/#/

I want, annually, for each Council this information. How much is my council actually enforcing YP? How often are leaders being disciplined? Arrested? Removed?  I don't need or want names, I want numbers.

If there's a Council that reports in the last year it had precisely NO YP violations whatsoever, then we know they are either a) lying b) hiding or c) reached a state of perfection and we need to duplicate what that council is doing because they are doing it right.

Again, that is me as a leader who wants to make sure my scouts moving forward are safe and BSA takes this seriously.

Edited by CynicalScouter
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38 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Did you read the TCC's proposal (which was adopted as part of the RSA and into Plan 5.5.)? It is pretty clear and on this I believe the TCC and Coalition are 100% in agreement on. The BSA has been allowed to handpick their experts, hide information from them (and there's a TRACK RECORD of BSA simply hiding from their hand picked experts data on abuse) etc.

This is the current proposal under Plan 5.5. The BSA doesn't get to hand pick its experts anymore to have them parrot back to the BSA "You are perfect just the way you are!"

"1. The Debtors shall form a committee (the “Child Protection Committee”) of members from the BSA, Local Councils, the Tort Claimants’ Committee, and the Coalition (including survivors). The functions of the Child Protection Committee include the following:

a. No later than six months after the Effective Date, the BSA will present to the Committee on the BSA’s current Youth Protection Program (the “Youth Protection Program”). The BSA will report to the Child Protection Committee regarding the Youth Protection Program and any changes thereto on an annual basis for a period of three years following the Effective Date.

b. Following that presentation, the BSA and Child Protection Committee will work with an entity engaged by the BSA that is selected with the consultation of the Child Protection Committee that is not currently affiliated with the BSA to evaluate the Youth Protection Program (the “Evaluating Entity”). The Evaluating Entity will have expertise in the prevention of youth sexual abuse.

(i) Any evaluation will be comprehensive in nature and include input from current BSA volunteers and professionals, survivors of sexual abuse while involved with Scouting, the members of the Child Protection Committee, and the Evaluating Entity.

(ii) The Evaluating Entity will report to the Child Protection Committee assessing the current Youth Protection Program and make specific recommendations for reasonable improvements to the Youth Protection Program that may include mechanisms for the elimination of abuse and accurate and annual reporting regarding the results of the Youth Protection Program, including confirmed instances of sexual abuse that is made available to the public (the “Prospective Reporting”).

(iii) The BSA will engage with the Evaluating Entity, and the Child Protection Committee, and will take appropriate steps as necessary to improve the Program. Changes to the Youth Protection Program will be reported on the BSA’s Youth Protection Program website and training will be reasonably adjusted to reflect changes.

c. The BSA will propose and the Child Protection Committee will consider a protocol for the review and publication of information in the Volunteer Screening Database and the Prospective Reporting, which will take into account factors including:

(i) the desire to make public credibly identified perpetrators of sexual abuse in Scouting;

(ii) adequate protections for survivor identities;

(iii) consideration regarding the protection of third parties, including survivor family members and volunteers; (iv) a notification process regarding any publication;

(v) issues related to privacy and liability related to publication; and

(vi) the potential appointment or retention of an appropriate neutral party to supervise the evaluation and review of the Volunteer Screening Database (the “Neutral Supervisor”). If the BSA and Child Protection Committee are unable to reach an agreement on the above protocol, the Neutral Supervisor shall mediate the dispute to resolution. In accordance with the process outlined above, information from the Volunteer Screening Database and Prospective Reporting shall be published annually after agreement among the parties or determination by the Neutral Supervisor

d. After consultation and recommendations from the Evaluating Entity, the Child Protection Committee may propose and the BSA will in good faith consider other issues relating to child protection, including:

(i) special BSA Scouting programs for survivors; and

(ii) participation and leadership in a comprehensive reporting program to include other youth-serving organizations.

e. The BSA will engage with the Child Protection Committee and consider all appropriate measures proposed by the Child Protection Committee to improve transparency and accountability with respect to any future instances of sexual abuse, including the dissemination of information relating to abuse statistics, consistent with practices of other youth-serving organizations, including what information may be publically available on the BSA’s website."

  • There is nothing in there that is an actual improvement. 
  • It claims credit for existing structures and real improvements already done by BSA.
  • It ignores major recent law changes; such as expanded mandatory reporting. 
  • "annual reporting" of confirmed incidents collides with mandatory reporting resulting in incomplete, conflicting and confusing status.  It's better to get the real measurements from outside sources receiving the reports.  

Those are pretty words without real change.  It claims credit for real progress over the last 20 years.  ... It's hot air.  ... Worse, it's treating BSA today like a criminal based on the actions of our grandparents and great-grandparents.  If TCC was serious, it would propose specific legislation for all youth organization.  

I had seen this above earlier, but it's an empty shell for actual change.

Edited by fred8033
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5 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

If TCC was serious, it would plug in and propose specific legislation for all youth organization.  

Grab a beverage, sit back and be assured it’s coming. I’m not on the TCC, but I’m already at it with CHILDUSA and CHILDUSA Advocacy. Refer back to the Funny Pink Hat Brigade posts and John Humphrey’s emphatic statement of commitment to this course of action as his new “mission in life.” 

Also, if BSA whiffs on what’s proposed, that’s not on us. Further, if change sweeps, they gonna get swept right along with it.

Edited by ThenNow
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16 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

There is nothing in there that is an actual improvement.

I'm sorry, what? Annual reporting is not an "actual improvement"?

Insisting on have an outside reviewer/monitor is not "actual improvement"?

16 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

If TCC was serious, it would plug in and propose specific legislation for all youth organization.  

The TCC is not out here to try and fix the world or "all youth organization(s)." It is trying to help ensure that the sexual abuse they suffered IN SCOUTS does not have to OTHER SCOUTS and that SCOUTING starts to take sexual abuse seriously and report it annually.

Edited by CynicalScouter
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8 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I'm sorry, what? Annual reporting is not an "actual improvement"?

Insisting on have an outside reviewer/monitor is not "actual improvement"?

The TCC is not out here to try and fix the world or "all youth organization(s)." It is trying to help ensure that the sexual abuse they suffered IN SCOUTS does not have to OTHER SCOUTS and that SCOUTING starts to take sexual abuse seriously and report it annually.

We've been thru this argument many many ways.  

Past incidents did not happen in an vacuum.  Scouting is a community structure happening in schools, churches, police stations with parents and other members of the community.  

Scouting has DRASTICALLY evolved YPT with continual improvements.  Improvements before other organizations.

For annual reporting of incidents is problematic for many ways.  Perhaps, the key improvement is to change voluntary number rollup into a mandatory reporting for roll-up.  A national database / structure already exists. 

           https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/systemwide/statistics/can/

 

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9 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Scouting has DRASTICALLY evolved YPT with continual improvements.  Improvements before other organizations.

Then it should have no problems with having a truly INDEPENDENT Monitor come in for at least 3 years.

9 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Past incidents did not happen in an vacuum. 

You are right. The incidence happened: and then BSA lied to their very own internal reviewers about the problem.

BSA lied. It hid. It willfully deceived. It will pay and pay and pay.

And BSA has proven it can NOT be left to monitor itself. When it has done so, it has failed miserably.

"By dealing with  these cases as a series of unrelated events rather than as a pattern, the Boy Scouts of America was  behaving  just  like  Carl:  minimizing,  rationalizing, assuring itself it had no problem. "The Scouts believed their own image. They believed their own publicity," says Mike Rothschild, a California attorney who represented an abused Scout.34

No  one,  therefore,  reported  the  cases  to the  BSA's health and safety committee, which routinely got reports on injuries  and deaths  at Scout  functions.  When Scouts got hurt or killed while boating, the committee developed rules to make boating safer. During America's Bicentennial cel­ebrations, the committee  studied  whether  the gunpowder used by troops in some ceremonial muskets was dangerous. But Dr. Walter Menninger, a psychiatrist  who headed the Menninger Foundation in Kansas and who chaired the committee, says he did not believe sex abuse was a problem in Scouting because no one had informed him of any cases.

Thus uninformed, Menninger sat in a 1987 deposition for lawsuit filed by an abused Scout and declared, "There is a greater threat to Scouts of drowning and loss of life from accidents than there is from sexual abuse by a Scoutmaster."

In fact, BSA reports show that sex abuse is more common in Scouting than deaths or serious injuries. From 1971 through 1990, an average of 13 Scouts died during Scout activities each year, and 30 suffered serious injuries, defined by the Scouts as life-threatening or requiring hospitalization of at least 24 hours." For each of those years, however, the BSA banned an average of 67 adults suspected of abusing Scouts."

 

9 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Scouting has DRASTICALLY evolved YPT with continual improvements.  Improvements before other organizations.

Yes, as the direct result of being sued and sued and sued and sued.

Don't make it as if BSA did YPT out of the kindness of its heart. It had to be dragged to it by lawsuits.

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11 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

We've been thru this argument many many ways.  

Past incidents did not happen in an vacuum.  Scouting is a community structure happening in schools, churches, police stations with parents and other members of the community.  

Scouting has DRASTICALLY evolved YPT with continual improvements.  Improvements before other organizations.

For annual reporting of incidents is problematic for many ways.  Perhaps, the key improvement is to change voluntary number rollup into a mandatory reporting for roll-up.  A national database / structure already exists. 

           https://www.childwelfare.gov/topics/systemwide/statistics/can/

 

So I checked out the link and I couldn’t find anything about abuse in the BSA.  Where should I look 

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18 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

For annual reporting of incidents is problematic for many ways.  Perhaps, the key improvement is to change voluntary number rollup into a mandatory reporting for roll-up.  A national database / structure already exists. 

And where is the BSA data? Oh right, it isn't there because BSA continues to hide, hide, hide.

If BSA has nothing to hide, then it will happily report annually the number of total incidents and (better still) by Council, type, and results.

7 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

So I checked out the link and I couldn’t find anything about abuse in the BSA.  Where should I look 

It isn't there because BSA is being forced as part of the bankruptcy and the TCC to actual start to disclose info and stop hiding.

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3 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Then it should have no problems with having a truly INDEPENDENT Monitor come in for at least 3 years.

You are right. The incidence happened: and then BSA lied to their very own internal reviewers about the problem.

BSA lied. It hid. It willfully deceived. It will pay and pay and pay.

And BSA has proven it can NOT be left to monitor itself. When it has done so, it has failed miserably.

"By dealing with  these cases as a series of unrelated events rather than as a pattern, the Boy Scouts of America was  behaving  just  like  Carl:  minimizing,  rationalizing, assuring itself it had no problem. "The Scouts believed their own image. They believed their own publicity," says Mike Rothschild, a California attorney who represented an abused Scout.34

No  one,  therefore,  reported  the  cases  to the  BSA's health and safety committee, which routinely got reports on injuries  and deaths  at Scout  functions.  When Scouts got hurt or killed while boating, the committee developed rules to make boating safer. During America's Bicentennial cel­ebrations, the committee  studied  whether  the gunpowder used by troops in some ceremonial muskets was dangerous. But Dr. Walter Menninger, a psychiatrist  who headed the Menninger Foundation in Kansas and who chaired the committee, says he did not believe sex abuse was a problem in Scouting because no one had informed him of any cases.

Thus uninformed, Menninger sat in a 1987 deposition for lawsuit filed by an abused Scout and declared, "There is a greater threat to Scouts of drowning and loss of life from accidents than there is from sexual abuse by a Scoutmaster."

In fact, BSA reports show that sex abuse is more common in Scouting than deaths or serious injuries. From 1971 through 1990, an average of 13 Scouts died during Scout activities each year, and 30 suffered serious injuries, defined by the Scouts as life-threatening or requiring hospitalization of at least 24 hours." For each of those years, however, the BSA banned an average of 67 adults suspected of abusing Scouts."

 

Yes, as the direct result of being sued and sued and sued and sued.

Don't make it as if BSA did YPT out of the kindness of its heart. It had to be dragged to it by lawsuits.

Lie.  Hid.  Deceived.  Incendiary words that I don't buy into.  Your words "lack of informing" is not lying, hiding or deceiving.  CSA in 1980s and earlier was not viewed as a safe scouting issue.  It was just becoming understood as a crime.   Just like insurance policies written then did not recognize the massive liability of CSA.  People did not think of CSA as a safety issue any more than bank robbery was not considered a safety issue then.

This argument will go round and round. 

Yes, BSA will pay, pay, pay.   Thank you for writing that, but it's just mean and spiteful.   Most of your posts are more considerate. 

BSA was at the center of big wrong.  There were many aspects to this failure.  Now, society is punishing BSA.

I just don't want to be the hypocrite in this righteous stoning.   

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17 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Lie.  Hid.  Deceived.

Just based on the Menninger incident where it was shown that BSA hid from its own health and safety committee about the prevalence of sexual abuse, I'd say yep.

When Menninger then went into deposition and under oath said "There is a greater threat to Scouts of drowning and loss of life from accidents than there is from sexual abuse by a Scoutmaster" I would say yep. A lie.

Defend BSA's actions all you want. I won't.

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3 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Just based on the Menninger incident where it was shown that BSA hid from its own health and safety committee about the prevalence of sexual abuse, I'd say yep.

When Menninger then went into deposition and under oath said "There is a greater threat to Scouts of drowning and loss of life from accidents than there is from sexual abuse by a Scoutmaster" I would say yep. A lie.

Defend BSA's actions all you want. I won't.

It's not a lie.  It's a reflection of the times.  

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18 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

It's not a lie.  It's a reflection of the times.  

Riddle me this: You’re saying BSA, as a “reflection of the times” IN THE LATER part of the 1980’s (when did YPT start?), simply overlooked and thought unimportant the decades of historic child sexual abuse while giving all other Scouting-related risk factors to the head of their risk assessment team? Ok. Roger that.

Did they tell their finance department and Scouters and Scouts and parents and LCs that Summit is a sinkhole into which one can shovel money? Oh, yeah. That’s another issue entirely. Again, a “reflection of the times.”

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