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Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese


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We're going to split the ch11.x thread in 2. The original will be kept as it was intended, for the legal aspects of the case and everything else will go here. In a nutshell, if the judge is dealing wi

@Gilwell_1919 I want to respond to this, but in the proper thread, which is this one. Let's be clear what Kosnoff has said. 1) He had stated that scouting should continue. He's repeated th

No one here, except members who are claimants, have any part of deciding anything in this bankruptcy. Let's drop the personal criticism of others who express in a scoutlike way their differing op

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3 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

"Fire me?"

 (The very, very short answer is YES, National can "FIRE YOU." And it has fired volunteers for non-sexual abuse reasons (political), fired units, and sanctioned councils.)

I came across your post while looking for something else.  But I have returned to respond-as I must.

 My conscience will not permit me to pass by your post without comment. Everyone should know the things that I know.

"But what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career." --Liam Neeson playing Bryan Mills in Taken.

 In my case, substitute "knowledge" for "skills." And then you have it.

 [What follows is from my personal knowledge of the treatment by National, Region, Area and local council of several of my long-term, highly distinguished in Scouting, friends. I know these things to be true.]

 [Seat belts, please, this ride is violent.]

There is a document published by National entitled "Standards of Membership and Leadership."  It is a restricted document-distribution being limited to National staff, council scout executives, and select senior council staff who have a "need-to-know."

I believe, though could be wrong, that National concealed even the existence of this document for decades, though there is mention in the current bankruptcy of "standards of membership and leadership," I am not clear whether those references are to the particular publication of which I am aware, or some abstract concept of "standards."

(Some time ago, when the need to have a copy of this document would be helpful, a copy appeared in the mail to me, anonymously. A volunteer who knew someone, who knew someone, etc. seems to be the source of the document being sent to me.)

If one offends a Scout Executive, or Council President, ENOUGH, (and perhaps there other individuals in a council's hierarchy one can offend to trigger such a result), one may receive a letter (approved by National, as I understand it), stating, in effect:

"Membership is a privilege and not a right."

"The Boy Scouts Of America has determined that you do not meet its standards of membership and leadership, and is revoking your membership in the Boy Scouts Of America."

"You have the right to appeal this decision within 30 days of the date of this letter.  Send your appeal request and any pertinent documents to ...."

 You will receive a refund check in the amount of the dues you last paid.  (Insult to injury.)

 No statement of the grounds for your dismissal will be provided. Ever.

 And thereby, you will be BRANDED as gay, atheist, or a child abuser in your own hometown, church, community, family.  "What did Tom do???'

Conversation in church pew: "Where's Tom (or Mary) they are always here with their kids?"

"Oh, Tom (or Mary) was thrown out of Boy Scouting."

 "Why?"

 "No one knows.  He (she) won't talk about it. He (she) have just fallen off the radar."

 "Gee, Scouting is such a wholesome program, how could Tom (Mary) debase it so-what horrible people he/she/they are-has a criminal case been filed against Tom (Mary)?  Not taking my kids over there for our usual Friday's sleepover."

(I have no problem with gays or atheists-everyone is just trying to get through the day.  Those folks are not my life, but as I won't let anyone think for me, I ask not that anyone let me think for them.)

 But branded as a child abuser? People tend to think the worst of things, so get thrown out of Scouting, folks will think you are a child abuser.  Even if you are a CPA questioning some accounting issue?  Lovely.

 Does not "Trustworthy" apply to National?  (Well, that it has filed bankruptcy on account of its decades of lies about child abuse-so, apparently not.)

What is the point of the principles of an organization if not to be followed by not only its adherents, but also the organization?

 And expulsion all because you questioned a council budget item that embarrassed some pea-brained volunteer or Scout Executive. And because you volunteered as a scout leader to help your child.

 If you think that a long scouting career of distinguished, meritorious service will protect you.  It won't. I know this to be true.

 The BSA is a Congressionally chartered corporation.  That is rare.

 National titles itself as the "Boy Scouts of America."

 One would think that between "Congressionally" and "America," a banished scout volunteer would be accorded the rights accorded in the Bill of Rights:

To know the charges against you. Nope

 To present evidence (You can, but as you have no idea of the charges, what evidence do you present to rebut unknown charges?  Dutch oven recipes? A list of great restaurants in Gatlinburg? The phone directory of Lower Manhattan?)

 To appear at your hearing and confront witnesses?  Nope.  Can't do that.  You won't even know when or where the hearing will be held. Or who constitutes the tribunal. Or even if they ever meet or read anything you submit.  (Read Arthur Koestler's Darkness At Noon, where the accused are taken into a basement, but shot in the back of the head on their way down the steps to the basement. The accused don't even get the benefit of torture.) And scouting volunteers whose membership is revoked also won't get the right to speak a single word in their defense.

 To confront your accusers?  Nope. You will never know who you offended, or why they were offended.

There is NOTHING in National's "Standards of Membership and Leadership" which accords you any legal rights whatsoever.

 So, if you receive such a letter, get a copy of Franz Kafka's The Trial.  Read it twice.  I have.  It accurately portrays just what you are up against.

 National has structured the "membership game" that, win, lose, or draw, National always WINS!

"Let them hate, as long as they FEAR." (Some French King whose name escapes me.)

 "Work for free, send money, don't question."

Compliant and complacent volunteers, donating money, are welcome.  The troublesome, well, National has its ways.

 I expect that  if the same group of National staffers now employed retain their jobs after the bankruptcy, there will be membership retribution against identifiable posters on this forum.

 It seems to be National's way.

 (As I write this, I am looking at two Banker's boxes of files pertaining to the membership revocation war in my council from some time ago which my spouse wants me to cull. Now they are all so relevant again.)

And they will not be culled.

 It is a question of "finding one's backbone."

 Most folks avoid conflict and dissention-it is unpleasant-but for some, when their line is crossed, they stand up regardless of consequences, and thereby become the leaders National espouses to create but also crushes if their efforts are just too successful toward National.

 Can National FIRE ME?  Yep. And it won't care a whit.

All I can say: "Beware the Mother that eats her children."

And so, National lays down another layer of "Scouting Tradition."

Deceit.

@SiouxRanger, you are scaring me only because it is like you are inside my head...perhaps I am schizoprenic, and you are just one of my multiple personalities exposing some of the demons I face in this council...

Well...expose away ;)  But do tone down the rhetoric a bit, please...

Edited by InquisitiveScouter
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And I thought the Amish mafia was bad.

Seriously, let's tone down this episode of Crime in the City (Council?). We have young readers in the group and this thread is bordering inappropriate. And perhaps well past the border into verboten territory.

Sadly, I still need to learn how to hide posts  :(  I am afraid if I fool too much with the moderator controls this entire site might disappear at wrap speed. Where is Scotty when you need him?

 

 

Edited by gpurlee
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20 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

@SiouxRanger, you are scaring me only because it is like you are inside my head...perhaps I am schizoprenic, and you are just one of my multiple personalities exposing some of the demons I face in this council...

Well...expose away ;)  But do tone down the rhetoric a bit, please...

Ever had an adult scouter, publicly thrown out of scouting for political reasons, (and later reinstated) come up to you at a camporee at a Council camp and say to you:

 

"My son told me he plans to stay close to me this weekend so that no one from the Council will show up and throw me out of camp-my son thought that they wouldn't do that if he was nearby."

 

I have heard that.  

 

So, you wield the pen-strike from my posts that which seems "over the top."

 

Please let me know what is exaggeration.

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

I'm asking how the process would go... if the insurers got their way. We know BSA cannot afford to stay in bankruptcy limbo for much longer. At what point, or rough timeline, would they need to throw their hands in the air and say fine... bring on Chapter 7... it was nice knowing everyone. I'm interested in this because I am about to start putting a lot of effort into helping to promote my national-level CO to be a bastion for units that lose their COs at re-charter and need a place to hang their hats. I never like being a pessimist, but I also don't want to spend an inordinate amount of time setting up a support mechanism if there is no hope for BSA. Not that anyone is clairvoyant and can predict what will happen... but an analytically thought-out guesstimate would be helpful. 

Should BSA do everything it can to promote awareness to prevent or minimize future exposure to the children, I do not oppose the continuation of the organization.  Just because they did me great harm doesn't give me the right to deny kids the future opportunity under those protections.  That said, I am no attorney-just a claimant.  This thing looks like it will drag on for some time.  With that in mind, if I were you I would monitor and defer until we have a better picture.  I would have to believe that there would not be just tons of corporate sponsorships with the media attention being given the bankruptcy and abuse.  And though I lack the data, the negative press cannot help membership in the near-term.  Not to mention the uncertainty of the virus.  I really wanted to go to a concert in December, but I passed on the tickets last week.  

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As moderators we are charged with a responsibility to monitor the content of this forum. All of us are volunteers and have also been involved in Scouting for a number of years. We consider it both an honor and a responsibility to be asked to moderate.

We are sensitive to the fact that we have a wide variety of readers using the forum. And this may include young readers at times.  So generally we try to maintain a G or at least a PG level discussions when it is possible. This is challenging given the nature of the topics which are discussed here.

I think the general rule is to try to avoid explicit descriptions or terms. that are sexual or violent in nature.  It is a judgement call by the individual moderator.

Also, we attempt (often unsuccessfully) to keep the focus of the thread on the original topic (is there a merit badge in cat-herding?)

Finally, we try to maintain a positive, respectful environment that values diverse opinions. More difficult than it seems.

If there are concerns or if further discussion or clarification is needed, I think that any of the moderators would be glad to discuss further.

We appreciate everyone's assistance in making this forum possible.

Edited by gpurlee
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1 minute ago, gpurlee said:

We appreciate everyone's assistance in making this forum possible.

As well, many many thanks.  We may not always agree but at a time when people "tune in" to only the media that support their existing opinions, it's wonderful to read opposing sides and evaluate our own beliefs.  One more vote for trying to keep this civil and also recognizing how hard that is when the subject touches us all so deeply.

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5 minutes ago, gpurlee said:

As moderators we are charged with a responsibility to monitor the content of this forum. All of us are volunteers and have also been involved in Scouting for a number of years. We consider it both an honor and a responsibility to be asked to moderate.

We are sensitive to the fact that we have a wide variety of readers using the forum. And this may include young readers at times.  So generally we try to maintain a G or at least a PG level discussions when it is possible. This is challenging given the nature of the topics which are discussed here.

I think the general rule is to try to avoid explicit descriptions or terms. that are sexual or violent in nature.  It is a judgement call by the individual moderator.

Also, we attempt (often unsuccessfully) to keep the focus of the thread on the original topic (is there a merit badge in cat-herding?)

Finally, we try to maintain a positive, respectful environment that values diverse opinions. More difficult than it seems.

If there are concerns or if further discussion or clarification is needed, I think that any of the moderators would be glad to discuss further.

We appreciate everyone's assistance in making this forum possible.

Understood and agreed.

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56 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

It is a good omen for the future of scouting that people on this forum are starting that process of reimagining scouting. 

Re-imagining a new or restoring the old scouting are recurring themes on this forum.

One member @Kuducreated a website http://inquiry.net/

There you will find online scout handbooks in the Traditional Scouting section. All public.

My $0.02,

Edited by RememberSchiff
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54 minutes ago, RandomScouter said:

I'm pages behind on the ch.11 thread, and I haven't had my coffee yet, so please forgive me if I sound dense.  It sounds like the mods are trying to make a place for the more emotionally-charged topics of discussion and speculations about what may happen (e.g. CO relations) here while leaving ch.11 for the "cold hard facts" of the bankruptcy case.

So, if it's about:

-LC assets (stated numbers, dollar amounts, property values)

-LC contributions (i.e. announcements about they are contributing and how they plan to raise the funds - not our estimations of what they should or might contribute)

it goes here(?) or can they go in ch.11?

 

We're making this up as we go, and your job is to find the corner cases so we don't end up with 18 yo asm's not able to hang out with their friends. :)

so .... The TCC posted something about what they think each council is worth so that goes in the other thread. Councils post what they have to pay (yeah, right) because that is certainly part of the bankruptcy so that goes in the other thread. Now, if you want to discuss what's fair, moral, etc, it belongs here.

 

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1 hour ago, Muttsy said:

Not endorsing TrailLifeUSA. Just observing that alternatives are popping up. https://www.traillifeusa.com/
 

70% growth in past 12 months. 

I don't see any evidence that they've grown that much recently. They were at 30k about a year ago, so they'd need to be at 50k now for that level of growth. 

Oh, they have a 70% growth in new members relative to their numbers of new members last year. But still only 35k members now. (And I find their membership numbers problematic in that it includes youth and adults)

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12 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Re-imagining a new or restoring the old scouting are recurring themes on this forum.

One member @Kuducreated a website http://inquiry.net/

There you will find online scout handbooks in the Traditional Scouting section. All public.

My $0.02,

Another great resource...

http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/scouts.html

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