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Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese


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28 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

So you would not follow your legal advice?

Right and here I will express sympathy (gasp!) for the Board. They were being advised on what to do with the sexual abuse cases and next-best-steps. If they honestly relied on their lawyers advice, I can't blame them for any stutter steps.

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20 minutes ago, yknot said:

BSA should never have allowed LDS to create a program within a program.

That ship sailed so early on in the BSA history (1920?). I've read LDS was the first CO. They literally walked a check to Texas every year. Yes, they shouldn't have done it. But early on in scouting history, I can understand why they cut that deal.

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There is A LOT of anecdotal evidence the decision was made long before it was anounced, i.e. the selection of an Exploring/Venturing executive for CSE (a first), comments to new DEs about radical membership changes ahead, gender neutral language for Cub Scout and "Scouts" sections of youth application months prior to announcement,  ad nauseum.

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35 minutes ago, yknot said:

Scouting never should have become a Sunday school program for COs of any denomination. COs should have been given leeway within the confines of the program to adapt as much as possible to their local wishes but scouting should have remained true to scouting -  a game for boys.  And now girls. 

I want to point something out and I guess I never realized this until about 3 years ago.

Baden-Powell NEVER put anything into the original Scout Oath (Scout Promise) about reverance. Most other WOSM (or what became WOSM) members didn't either. That was 100% a US thing.

I will do my duty to God and the King. I will do my best to help others, whatever it costs me. I know the scout law, and will obey it.

I read the version of the original Manual that Baden-Powell wrote for India. He was clear it was meant for ALL faiths and faith practices. Adherence to the divine ("Duty to God") never changed, but later on B-P got very, very nervous with how BSA became attached at the hip to churches.

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20 minutes ago, yknot said:

I worked in survey design in both politics and marketing. The BSA survey on girls in scouting was guided.

Yep. The survey was garbage. It was poorly designed and executed. As was noted: in SOME councils only K3 got it. In SOME councils Board, in other Councils everyone.

That is like just a basic sampling error that it would be rejected from a high school stats class

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Forgot about the timing and procedure of the membership surveys. Councils had to have all 3 members of the key three give a presentation, and only those at the presentation could take the survey. As for timing, announced hours before many were leaving for Jamboree, and the limited time frame for the polls included the time jamboree was going on.

Also LDS folks in western region did not have their surveys counted.

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19 minutes ago, yknot said:

BSA was always in control of its program. 

BSA was not always in control of its program. LDS drove so, so much.

1) The entire Varsity program was to appease the LDS.

2) Allowing segregated units/councils was to appease LDS which until it was SUED INTO SHAME in the 1970s prohibited African-America leaders. In LDS units, PLs had to be LDS youth leaders and since African American Scouts couldn't be youth leaders, there were NO LDS units with African American leadership

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3) Things as mundane as "Why can't BSA units have raffles/games of chance" were all put into to appease LDS. For raffles/games of chance it was because that is technically gambling. Etc.

4) And perhaps most critically, we now have documented proof that what became youth protection training (YPT) was withheld from scouts for at least a decade (late 1970s into the 1980s) over LDS objections over sexuality and discussions of it. And even when it WAS put it, the IV files released indicate the LDS units were given broad latitude/exemptions to mandatory reporting.

So no, BSA was not "always in control of its program"

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3 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

BSA was not always in control of its program. LDS drove so, so much.

1) The entire Varsity program was to appease the LDS.

2) Allowing segregated units/councils was to appease LDS which until it was SUED INTO SHAME in the 1970s prohibited African-America leaders. In LDS units, PLs had to be LDS youth leaders and since African American Scouts couldn't be youth leaders, there were NO LDS units with African American leadership

3) Things as mundane as "Why can't BSA units have raffles/games of chance" were all put into to appease LDS. For raffles/games of chance it was because that is technically gambling. Etc.

4) And perhaps most critically, we now have documented proof that what became youth protection training (YPT) was withheld from scouts for at least a decade (late 1970s into the 1980s) over LDS objections over sexuality and discussions of it. And even when it WAS put it, the IV files released indicate the LDS units were given broad latitude/exemptions to mandatory reporting.

So no, BSA was not "always in control of its program"

I'm sorry, I missed the part where the LDS mafia sent thugs to beat up BSA leadership and leave horse heads in their beds.  Are you kidding me, LOL? A group of people who are supposed to be the most morally upright Dudley Do Rights on the planet somehow caved to this kind of pressure? 

This is what I'm talking about. 

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Just now, yknot said:

I'm sorry, I missed the part where the LDS mafia sent thugs to beat up BSA leadership and leave horse heads in their beds.

"Do what we want or 1/3 to 1/2 of your organization walks out the door."

In a very technical sense yes, BSA leadership was in control and could have said no.

But at least early on in BSA history, that would have effectively mean suicide for the program.

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1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said:

"Do what we want or 1/3 to 1/2 of your organization walks out the door."

In a very technical sense yes, BSA leadership was in control and could have said no.

But at least early on in BSA history, that would have effectively mean suicide for the program.

Understood. But that developed over time and I would argue didn't need to get to the point where BSA felt like LDS had them over a barrel. Making decisions based on membership has continually gotten BSA off track. 

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43 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I want to point something out and I guess I never realized this until about 3 years ago.

Baden-Powell NEVER put anything into the original Scout Oath (Scout Promise) about reverance. Most other WOSM (or what became WOSM) members didn't either. That was 100% a US thing.

I will do my duty to God and the King. I will do my best to help others, whatever it costs me. I know the scout law, and will obey it.

I read the version of the original Manual that Baden-Powell wrote for India. He was clear it was meant for ALL faiths and faith practices. Adherence to the divine ("Duty to God") never changed, but later on B-P got very, very nervous with how BSA became attached at the hip to churches.

@CynicalScouter  You are correct.  The LDS were signed up in 1913.  The Scout Oath and Law date to the formation of the BSA in 1910.  The USA was rather Victorian in 1910 and very heavily Christian.  When one reads William Hillcourt's biography, "Baden-Powell: The Two Lives of a Hero", it is clear that B-P's mother is the central figure of the family (his father died when B-P was young).  His mother was not very religious and neither was B-P.   As you said,  B-P wanted Scouting for all children to be able to join Scouting and London was even then a very diverse city.  So not having a Duty to God made sense to him whereas the opposite was the case in the USA.  But the LDS were not the source or the earliest to push for a Duty to God.

In general, BSA Professionals have supported girls in the program and some relaxation of the Duty to God beyond what is the current definition.  Perhaps that will happen.  In the arena of child character development, there is considerable debate on how important it is, if at all, to have a religious component to a successful character development program that the BSA is.  So I have mixed feelings on what is best for the children to develop character and what should be done.

Like any corporation, it is never good to have an outside entity that can significantly affect policy.  In some ways, it might be good to have facilities use agreements rather than chartered organizations.  

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1 hour ago, yknot said:

Understood. But that developed over time and I would argue didn't need to get to the point where BSA felt like LDS had them over a barrel. Making decisions based on membership has continually gotten BSA off track. 

So there were two aspects to the LDS in BSA decision making.  LDS volunteers have been and are (as individuals) active at all levels in the BSA so had a presence on national committees, the NEC, and the NEB.  So they influenced decision making by being part of it.  The other aspect was unlike other institutions such as the United Methodists, Catholics, etc. who have local churches that charter units, the LDS church paid for all the local Stakes, their Scouts, and volunteers.  So that the LDS church could withdraw ~1/3 of the membership all at once.  That was what happened though it was with much warning.  My feelings and understanding was that the LDS had no desire to harm the BSA but more than 1/2 of the LDS church is outside of the USA and they needed a program for youth throughout the world.  The LDS did not oppose adding girls under 14 when the vote occurred but they felt that they would soon be leaving.  The parting was friendly.

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2 hours ago, yknot said:

I'm sorry, I missed the part where the LDS mafia sent thugs to beat up BSA leadership and leave horse heads in their beds.  Are you kidding me, LOL? A group of people who are supposed to be the most morally upright Dudley Do Rights on the planet somehow caved to this kind of pressure? 

This is what I'm talking about. 

Don't take CS seriously the minute he/she departs from commenting on btcy pleadings.

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1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

So not having a Duty to God made sense to him whereas the opposite was the case in the USA

I find this to be a very curious comment.

So, perhaps, could it be, that the "Duty to God" element was introduced to U.S. Scouting to entice religious denominations to accept the Chartered Organization role on a denomination-wide basis?

And, perhaps, so adopted because the SOLE religious denomination in Great Britain was the Church of England (courtesy of some arrogant King), but in America, many denominations were active and Constitutionally NEVER to be circumscribed.

Does anyone have any further insight beyond my limited knowledge?

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