Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese

[Gilwell_1919 42]

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

EVEN IF they did in the past, there's NO evidence they are doing so NOW in 2021 (and the financial data for 2019 and 2020, which is what I referenced) and in fact given that every financial document is being vetted by a) their accountants who are now post-Sarbanes-Oxley on notice the accountants can get handcuffed if they fudge numbers b) the attorneys for the claimants, I find it extremely unlikely that BSA's accounting TODAY is anything other than squeaky clean.

Admittedly, my referenced URL was from 2009. It was more of a snarky comment... hence the "  "

The current folks may be squeaky clean saints. 

[Gilwell_1919 42]

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

Every year during our Friends of Scouting campaign, we have several groups. The group of the heavy hitters is approximately equal to the others combined.  So make the brochures, slides, posters, or whatever it requires to make contact and convince them that Scouting is something that they wish to make a large donation. 

Who benefits from those donations? The LC camps that are in shambles? Scouts that have to pay fees to attend those LC camps? Thrown together LC activities that measure success based on profit, not quality? Sorry, I am a "boots on the ground" kind of person and from what I can see at ground level... someone that donates $100K to a local council does not help my scouts in anyway.

[David CO 1783]

15 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

Who benefits from those donations? 

You are making a lot of good points today.  

 

15 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

someone that donates $100K to a local council does not help my scouts in anyway.

This is exactly what I told our local United Way chairperson when she asked me if their donations actually benefitted any of the scouts in our town.  The SE was livid.

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by David CO

[MYCVAStory 687]

45 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

Sorry, I am a "boots on the ground" kind of person and from what I can see at ground level... someone that donates $100K to a local council does not help my scouts in anyway.

I am REALLY sorry to hear you say this.  If you're involved get more involved.  Speak out.  Be the change you want to see.  Any volunteer-driven organization MUST be driven by volunteers if change is going to come about.  And if none of that is possible or works or you're ostracized, go find another organization where you and 100K can make a difference.  The world needs both. 

[CynicalScouter 1434]

So, let's keep beating the dead horse of "BSA professionals make too much and should be paid $1" and put BSA in the context of other similar not for profits.

	19 Total Revenue	Executive compensation	Professional fundraising fees	Other salaries and wages	CEO/President 2019 Salary	2019 Salary	Salary as % of Revenue
Museum Of Modern Art	$443,982,645	$15,468,024	$0	$62,944,381	Glenn D Lowry (Director/Ex-Officio Trustee)	$4,130,549	0.93%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/131624100
Medecins Sans Frontieres/Doctors Without Borders	$434,252,433	$780,356	$13,466,404	$22,338,132	(Had two presidents and an interim executive director, so not clear what total salaries where)	Unclear	#VALUE!	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/133433452
Catholic Medical Mission Board	$433,856,899	$831,111	$317,345	$11,744,953	BRUCE WILKINSON (PRESIDENT AND CEO)	$434,341	0.10%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/135602319
Boy Scouts of America (NATIONAL ONLY)	$408,616,814	$5,055,829	$89,938	$57,013,503	Michael B Surbaugh (President)	$909,437	0.22%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/221576300
Young Life	$403,071,493	$1,437,251	$172,418	$155,749,890	Newton Crenshaw (President/CEO)	$399,765	0.10%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/840385934
Leukemia & Lymphoma Society	$396,221,152	$2,189,690	$5,823,217	$92,000,086	LOUIS J DEGENNARO (PRESIDENT &)	$781,916	0.20%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/135644916
New York Public Library	$393,419,155	$7,318,656	$309,800	$132,764,271	ANTHONY W MARX (Trustee, President and CEO)	$812,374	0.21%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/131887440
Oh, and here is GSUSA data as well as Trail Life
Girl Scouts of the U.S.A.	$122,052,984	$4,682,128	$477,775	$39,327,862	Sylvia Acevedo NON-VOTING (CEO & EX. OFFICIO OF THE BOARD)	$625,980	0.51%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/131624016
Trail Life USA	$2,461,601	$156,000	$0	$978,501	MARK HANCOCK (CEO)	$156,000	6.34%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/611717498

Now, let's really lay it out as a percentage.
	19 Total Revenue	Executive compensation as % of revenue	CEO/President 2019 Salary as % of Revenue
Museum Of Modern Art	$443,982,645	3.48%	0.93%
Medecins Sans Frontieres/Doctors Without Borders	$434,252,433	0.18%	#VALUE!
Catholic Medical Mission Board	$433,856,899	0.19%	0.10%
Boy Scouts of America (NATIONAL ONLY)	$408,616,814	1.24%	0.22%
Young Life	$403,071,493	0.36%	0.10%
Leukemia & Lymphoma Society	$396,221,152	0.55%	0.20%
New York Public Library	$393,419,155	1.86%	0.21%
Girl Scouts of the U.S.A.	$122,052,984	3.84%	0.51%
Trail Life USA	$2,461,601	6.34%	6.34%

 In other words, the BSA compensation package is comparable to that of other similar organizations.

Edited September 2, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[PeterHopkins 62]

3 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

EVEN IF they did in the past, there's NO evidence they are doing so NOW in 2021 (and the financial data for 2019 and 2020, which is what I referenced) and in fact given that every financial document is being vetted by a) their accountants who are now post-Sarbanes-Oxley on notice the accountants can get handcuffed if they fudge numbers b) the attorneys for the claimants, I find it extremely unlikely that BSA's accounting TODAY is anything other than squeaky clean.

Very little of the provisions of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act apply to the BSA, since it is not a public company. In the non-public entity context, SOX generally applies to criminal acts and not much more than that.

The IRS expects that if a return preparer "takes a position" on a return in an area in which the law is unclear, the preparer must conclude that the position would have at least a 40% chance of surviving, if it were audited. Of course, fraudulent reporting would have a 0% chance of surviving an audit.

[CynicalScouter 1434]

12 minutes ago, PeterHopkins said:

Very little of the provisions of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act apply to the BSA, since it is not a public company.

See this: Nonprofits and Sarbanes-Oxley https://www.americanbar.org/groups/center-pro-bono/resources/program-management/nonprofits_sarbanes_oxley/

I was refering to the idea that if BSA by and through its accountants were filing false financials in general, and as part of the IRS 990s in particular, DURING THE BANKRUPTCY Section 802 applies.

Record-keeping

• Section 802 of the Act makes it a crime to knowingly alter, destroy, mutilate, conceal, cover up, falsify or make a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of any federal department or agency or any case filed under the federal bankruptcy code. Violators may be fined and/or imprisoned for up to 20 years. (emphasis added)
• Section 1102 of the Act makes it a crime to "corruptly" alter, destroy, mutilate, or conceal a record, document or other object, or attempt to do so, with the intent to impair the object's integrity or availability for use in an official proceeding. The Act does not define the term "corruptly." Violators may be fined and/or imprisoned for up to 20 years. (emphasis added)

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter 1434]

So @David CO so far all you've done, and done for every one one of my posts, is downvote. Rather than engaging, rather than disagreeing, rather than refuting the data I provided in the latest post for example, all you do is downvote.

Do you have ANYTHING of substance to add other than a downvote? What, precisely do you disagree with in terms of that data I provided? You never answered.

What should the salary/salaries of BSA officials be? You never answered.

Past a certain point this becomes little more than petty unscoutlike behavior.

If all you have to say is a quick little downvote, then that speaks more about your capacity than mine.

Edited September 2, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[PeterHopkins 62]

@CynicalScouter - Yes, I agree those two sections would apply to the BSA (or any person) engaging in those criminal acts. As I said in my comment, a non-public entity generally needs to commit a crime for Sarbanes-Oxley to apply. There is an in-between area in which something fails to rise to the level of a crime but may not be completely accurate. The financial data provided by the BSA to the Bankruptcy Court should result from a good faith effort that reflects ordinary business care and prudence. That will generally not lead to perfection.

Was your comment implying that prior to SOX, such fraudulent reporting to the Bankruptcy Court was common?

Edited September 2, 2021 by PeterHopkins

[CynicalScouter 1434]

1 minute ago, PeterHopkins said:

Was your comment implying that prior to SOX, such fraudulent reporting to the Bankruptcy Court was common?

No.

The argument previously made and alleged by @Gilwell_1919was that financial data in general, and executive compensation in particular, by BSA in the past was untrustworthy. My point was that while it may/may not have been in the past, in the current context with the possibility of criminal charges and an active bankruptcy with people tearing through their financials, I extremely doubt that BSA's fudging its financials now.

[yknot 1338]

34 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

So, let's keep beating the dead horse of "BSA professionals make too much and should be paid $1" and put BSA in the context of other similar not for profits.

	19 Total Revenue	Executive compensation	Professional fundraising fees	Other salaries and wages	CEO/President 2019 Salary	2019 Salary	Salary as % of Revenue
Museum Of Modern Art	$443,982,645	$15,468,024	$0	$62,944,381	Glenn D Lowry (Director/Ex-Officio Trustee)	$4,130,549	0.93%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/131624100
Medecins Sans Frontieres/Doctors Without Borders	$434,252,433	$780,356	$13,466,404	$22,338,132	(Had two presidents and an interim executive director, so not clear what total salaries where)	Unclear	#VALUE!	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/133433452
Catholic Medical Mission Board	$433,856,899	$831,111	$317,345	$11,744,953	BRUCE WILKINSON (PRESIDENT AND CEO)	$434,341	0.10%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/135602319
Boy Scouts of America (NATIONAL ONLY)	$408,616,814	$5,055,829	$89,938	$57,013,503	Michael B Surbaugh (President)	$909,437	0.22%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/221576300
Young Life	$403,071,493	$1,437,251	$172,418	$155,749,890	Newton Crenshaw (President/CEO)	$399,765	0.10%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/840385934
Leukemia & Lymphoma Society	$396,221,152	$2,189,690	$5,823,217	$92,000,086	LOUIS J DEGENNARO (PRESIDENT &)	$781,916	0.20%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/135644916
New York Public Library	$393,419,155	$7,318,656	$309,800	$132,764,271	ANTHONY W MARX (Trustee, President and CEO)	$812,374	0.21%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/131887440
Oh, and here is GSUSA data as well as Trail Life
Girl Scouts of the U.S.A.	$122,052,984	$4,682,128	$477,775	$39,327,862	Sylvia Acevedo NON-VOTING (CEO & EX. OFFICIO OF THE BOARD)	$625,980	0.51%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/131624016
Trail Life USA	$2,461,601	$156,000	$0	$978,501	MARK HANCOCK (CEO)	$156,000	6.34%	https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/611717498

Now, let's really lay it out as a percentage.
	19 Total Revenue	Executive compensation as % of revenue	CEO/President 2019 Salary as % of Revenue
Museum Of Modern Art	$443,982,645	3.48%	0.93%
Medecins Sans Frontieres/Doctors Without Borders	$434,252,433	0.18%	#VALUE!
Catholic Medical Mission Board	$433,856,899	0.19%	0.10%
Boy Scouts of America (NATIONAL ONLY)	$408,616,814	1.24%	0.22%
Young Life	$403,071,493	0.36%	0.10%
Leukemia & Lymphoma Society	$396,221,152	0.55%	0.20%
New York Public Library	$393,419,155	1.86%	0.21%
Girl Scouts of the U.S.A.	$122,052,984	3.84%	0.51%
Trail Life USA	$2,461,601	6.34%	6.34%

 In other words, the BSA compensation package is comparable to that of other similar organizations.

I don't have an issue with Non profit CEOs making salaries that are commensurate with the marketplace. What I do have a problem with is CEOs who pull large salaries that do not at all appear to be linked to performance. BSA has been in a downward spiral for ... decades? .... and a great deal of it can be linked to poor management.  We are not getting good value from our CEO and top managment salary expenditures. In my opinion.  

 

[David CO 1783]

15 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Do you have ANYTHING of substance to add other than a downvote?

I already said most of what I want to say.  I don't wish to repeat myself a hundred times.  I don't like being interrogated.  This is not a courtroom.  I don't owe you or anyone else an answer.  It is my right to ignore your questions if I wish. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by David CO

[CynicalScouter 1434]

Just now, yknot said:

What I do have a problem with is CEOs who pull large salaries that do not at all appear to be linked to performance.

But then we get the complaints lodged above: that all BSA cares about is membership numbers.

What performance metrics should be used to weigh the effectiveness of the BSA CEO (Mosby for now)?

[PeterHopkins 62]

@CynicalScouter - SOX fundamentally changed many elements of financial reporting by public companes, how such companies act and how their financial statements are audited. In some cases, the costs to become compliant were tremendous, and it was difficult for me, as a CPA, to see how the public gained a beenfit from some of the provisions. I think the net was a little wider than it needed to be.

That being said, I don't think sections 802 or 1102 have had much impact on the behavior of people. I doubt anyone in the BSA now would engage in such acts now, even if they were completely unaware of the law, and I have the same doubt that this would have happened in the past, before the law existed.

The same ype of folks who would have committed these acts before SOX will do it today. They know that what they're doing is wrong and don't need a statute to tell them that. All those sections really do is describe the punishment for those who get caught.

[CynicalScouter 1434]

5 minutes ago, David CO said:

I already said most of what I want to say.  I don't wish to repeat myself a hundred times.  I don't like being interrogated.  I don't owe you or anyone else an answer.  It is my right to ignore your questions if I wish. 

Yep, as is your "right" to mass down vote every post made by myself and @johnsch322 or whoever else you want to target. If petty little down vote/internet "points" is the only response you are capable of and the only thing you care about, so be it.

Edited September 2, 2021 by CynicalScouter