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Why did BSA make Cub Scouting more expensive?


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55 minutes ago, Delphinus said:

Yikes! Why are the fees, particularly the Council fee, skyrocketing so much!? What added value are the Scouts and their families getting for that tremendous increase. All the Pack and Den leaders, the adult volunteers who actually do all of the work, are UNPAID. Where is all that extra money going? If they do that here, we'll probably drop out. We can easily afford it, but when I do a cost/benefit analysis, the value just isn't there to justify paying that much more. Our son has plenty of other extracurricular activities (sports, bowling, he's start Civil Air Patrol next year when he turns 12, etc...) that we don't need this program if they're going to try gouging us that much. I won't pay it just on principle. We're already seriously considering dropping out once he earns is AOL next month anyway, just because of some of the poor behavior and mistreatment from some of the Cub Scout adult leaders we've experienced the last several months.  

See page 22

https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/350867962_201912_990_2021021817717804.pdf

in 2019, CAC SE received $326K total compensation package.

Show that to the parents there, and see how they react to the fee increases.

LOL

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3 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

See page 22

https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/350867962_201912_990_2021021817717804.pdf

in 2019, CAC SE received $326K total compensation package.

Show that to the parents there, and see how they react to the fee increases.

LOL

Their top paid employees total comp:

SE = $326K

Deputy SE = $331K

Dir. Major Gifts = $191K

Dir. Field Ser = $182K

 

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1 hour ago, Delphinus said:

Where is all that extra money going?

Mostly: Fixed costs. They still have the infrastructure and staffing for a much larger membership. I assume donations are also dropping. Something has to give and they don't have the ability or desire to align their income with their expenses.

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On 2/10/2023 at 11:46 AM, MattR said:

They still have the infrastructure and staffing for a much larger membership.

This seems, without looking at the details, to be the issue. Staff, staff pay, facilities, and services sized for 2x the current org would drive 2x the old costs. 

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I'd like more information about the "adventure fee".  That seems a pretty typical cost for most of our council run events.  A little bit lower.  I wonder if they're trying to improve attendance at their council events by making people pay for them whether or not they go.  If that was meant to cover a full year's activities, it wouldn't be a bad price.  If you still need to pay 5 dollars for this and 50 for that all year long, that's a different matter.  Bigger concern to me than the price is the idea that the council might be planning the annual calendar instead of the youth. 

Raising the new scout fee to $100 is insane.  Recruiting is already hard enough. Is there a limit on how many times someone can attend something before joining? $100 is going to push away all the "we'll give it a try" families before they have a chance to see whether it's a fit for them.   To bring this back around to cub scouts... you can have a solid troop with only one 6th grader or no 9th graders, or whatever.  At the cub level, we NEED to recruit a critical mass of new scouts each year or we end up with dens that fail, then we get interested families with two kids, but only have a den for one.  Please don't create additional obstacles to recruitment!

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On 2/10/2023 at 12:27 PM, Eagle1993 said:

Their top paid employees total comp:

SE = $326K

Deputy SE = $331K

Dir. Major Gifts = $191K

Dir. Field Ser = $182K

 

We are at close to $650K for our SE (sorry CEO) for salary and benefits.  For the top 5 staff it is north of $1.6MM

Over 1/3 of the council staff is development (fundraising), marketing (figuring out how to fundraise), program management (running fundraisers)

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1 minute ago, Jameson76 said:

We are at close to $650K for our SE (sorry CEO) for salary and benefits.  For the top 5 staff it is north of $1.6MM

Over 1/3 of the council staff is development (fundraising), marketing (figuring out how to fundraise), program management (running fundraisers)

@Jameson76, would you be able to do the job?  And, if yes (or no), how much would you like to be paid (or think they should be)?  (I'm just curious, and not trying to be a joker...)

I know I could.  And I'd do it for about $150K, in our local area.  However, I use a lower number because I also receive a pension from another type of service organization 😜

At that combined income, our family would be in the top 10% of household incomes in the US.  (Where those salaries already place our SE's.)

 

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Welp .... CAC has now paused the new fee schedule.  Based on feedback from parents & volunteers, Crossroads of America council has decided to pause the new fee structure.

My daughter's annual Girl Scout fee is $25.  As mentioned, 4H and other similar organizations have pretty low annual fees.  BSA thinking $300+ is reasonable is completely wrong.

Members within CAC are still upset.  The entire council volunteer corp & paid leadership approved the fee.  

Hopefully a warning to other councils think about a massive fee increase.

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2 hours ago, cmd said:

Raising the new scout fee to $100 is insane.  Recruiting is already hard enough. Is there a limit on how many times someone can attend something before joining? $100 is going to push away all the "we'll give it a try" families before they have a chance to see whether it's a fit for them. 

It is already hard for me to recruit in September when it is ~$50 for 3 months and then $175 (national fee and unit dues) by 12/1. This giant fee increase assumes nothing for the unit. Crazy. 

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2 hours ago, cmd said:

I'd like more information about the "adventure fee".  That seems a pretty typical cost for most of our council run events.  A little bit lower.  I wonder if they're trying to improve attendance at their council events by making people pay for them whether or not they go.  If that was meant to cover a full year's activities, it wouldn't be a bad price.  If you still need to pay 5 dollars for this and 50 for that all year long, that's a different matter.  Bigger concern to me than the price is the idea that the council might be planning the annual calendar instead of the youth. 

Raising the new scout fee to $100 is insane.  Recruiting is already hard enough. Is there a limit on how many times someone can attend something before joining? $100 is going to push away all the "we'll give it a try" families before they have a chance to see whether it's a fit for them.   To bring this back around to cub scouts... you can have a solid troop with only one 6th grader or no 9th graders, or whatever.  At the cub level, we NEED to recruit a critical mass of new scouts each year or we end up with dens that fail, then we get interested families with two kids, but only have a den for one.  Please don't create additional obstacles to recruitment!

More context of that fee would be nice. Especially helpful to understand how it bypasses the current edict on annual activity fees that Councils can impose in lieu of annual FoS demands. Trend-wise here in New England that councils moved to that model years ago and asses each youth an annual activity fee- varies a bit on what that fee is, and what it gets the youth/unit. Mayflower Council charges $36, which gets the unit free tent camping at council camps and adults get no-cost training (BALOO and IOLS). Spirit of Adventure Council charges $48, Narragansett Council charge $54 for Cubs/Scouts BSA, which basically gives a discount on Council activities including summer camp. 

If CAC is charging this as a monthly fee, then are they are intending to have a council run activity each month of the year? Imagine that units would just have to question why run their own activity, and not just attend the council activity. I could see packs doing that in lieu of a monthly pack meeting more than I could troops for the most part, but at the end of the day, it seems a total program killer all-around. If you are in a council where it is an hour drive to a council camp, how many families could you see making that trek every month? For Cubs for the most part you are talking day events. Now try and get those families to commit to a monthly den outing and a monthly pack outing on top of the council outing. I don't see that being successful, and just building resentment to everyone that drives membership down in the long run.

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On 2/10/2023 at 11:17 AM, Eagle1993 said:

 

On 2/10/2023 at 12:27 PM, Eagle1993 said:

Their top paid employees total comp:

SE = $326K

Deputy SE = $331K

Dir. Major Gifts = $191K

Dir. Field Ser = $182K

 

WOW!  That's insane! That's more than a four-star general or admiral in the military makes. There is no way in hell I am donating money to "Friends of Scouting" again if they're paying those executives that much money. If you assume they're accurate in claiming an average of 50 hours a week, that's 2,500 hours a year and works out to $130 an hour. 

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On 2/10/2023 at 12:22 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

See page 22

https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/350867962_201912_990_2021021817717804.pdf

in 2019, CAC SE received $326K total compensation package.

Show that to the parents there, and see how they react to the fee increases.

LOL

I wonder how much the Tidewater Council executives get paid? I don't know if they're full-time equivalent employees , but it certainly gives incentives for them to show up to the pack Blue & Gold events every year, highjack the meetings for 40 minutes, and high-pressure the parents to donate money and achieve donation goals. 

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This is what we received from NCAC:

Quote

 

February 10, 2023

The National Capital Area Council, BSA (NCAC), held its Annual Business Meeting last night. The meeting was attended by over 100 volunteers serving in a variety of positions including Chartering Organization Representatives, Executive Board members, and other Council Members at Large.

One of the business items that was discussed and approved by the attendees referenced above was a new Council Strategic Plan. Throughout 2022, five Strategic Pillar Committees worked together to create a far-reaching plan that lays the foundation for guiding Scouting across our Council for the coming years. The five pillars are as follows: Grow Cub Scouts, Effective Fund Development, Optimizing Facilities, Organizational Alignment, and Re-establish the Value of Scouting.

One of the objectives the Organizational Alignment Pillar Committee proposed, and was approved, is the implementation of a “participation fee” for all members of our Council. While all the details of this objective have yet to be confirmed i.e., fee amount, youth/adult fee, or youth-only fee etc., the change will take effect in 2024. The Council participation fee will be collected as a part of the annual rechartering process.

A committee of volunteers is being assembled to assist with determining the details of the participation fee. It is worth noting that all initial discussions have included the need for a “scholarship fund” to help families who require financial assistance. No youth will be turned away due to an inability to pay.

Thank you for your continued support and commitment to Scouting in our National Capital Area Council!

Yours in Scouting,

 

Council President Morgan H. Sullivan

Council Commissioner Julia Mae-Shen Lesko

Scout Executive/CEO Mario A. Pèrez

 

 

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A link to the PDF that was used to present this new "Adventure Fee" to CAC volunteers at last week's district roundtables is here:https://crossroadsbsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/PP.pdf?vgo_ee=PEyTUlc0mr504drzrLyWRWVLY1pGRWb2%2B0FTX4hhTec%3D

 

And as a long time volunteer in the Crossroads of America Council at both the Pack and Troop level I do not approve of this fee.

 

Edited by MacBrave
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