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Chapter 11 Announced - Part 5 - RSA Ruling


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2 minutes ago, 1980Scouter said:

I think there is still some money out there especially from LC's. Mine has 20 million in assets and is paying 6.5 million into the settlement.  Not all LC's are like this but I was really surprised reading how much reserve funds some councils have. 

National still has HAB's and other small assets.  I feel like it will take more of these assets if there is to be a settlement.

While not fair, maybe the cash rich councils could contribute more to try to get a final deal with CO's covered. If the goal is to truly save scouting for the future, it might take this.

I tend to agree.  BSA should be helping to pay to include CO coverage OR they should exclude LC and COs from the settlement.   To only exclude COs and tell them “good luck” is not appropriate.  I can find no case where a CO had to pay out for sex abuse; however, they will clearly be sitting ducks if National BSA and Local Councils get immunity.  For BSA to do this to COs shows they can never be trusted.  If I were a CO, I would never sign a piece of paper from the BSA.  In fact, I would request the BSA sign my liability waivers.  

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I also was abused at home. Best thing my father ever did was leave. Scouting was my safe place, and all of the adults were positive role models who i can never thank enough. They showed me positive wa

Sir, I find your comments juvenile, vile and disgusting. You certainly disgrace the few decent people I have personally spoke with who are still trying to defend the organization as being still worth-

@David CO Sometimes, things end up being what you weren't trying to do. You may not think that your troop was a safe place, that you didn't adopt any of the scouts, and that it wasn't a big brother pr

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Yet another reason to this Monday is going to be a knock down/drag out fight over discovery and the claims.

Chubb Group Holdings Inc. (mislabeled on the Omni Docket as Chugg, but whatever) who was hit with one of the TCC/FCR/Coalition subpoenas (not just document request, and outright subpoena) has now filed its formal appearance in the case. This marks the FIRST time Chubb is officially participating (vs. Century).

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/62cdcec4-d7f4-435f-b4ba-cc6857864489_6125.pdf

In addition, Chubb is seeking pro hac vice admission of two attorneys on its behalf, both from Simpson Thacher & Bartlett LLP.

I would expect a) Century AND Chubb jointly and separately are going to fight the TCC/FCR/Coalition tooth and claw AND that b) Century plans to really fighting to get its discovery/claims reviews.

Remember: if Century (and Hartford who joined the motion) gets the discovery they are looking for, it will set the case back at LEAST two months (44 days just to get and process the document and interrogatory discovery for 1400 claims PLUS scheduling 100 depositions) and more likely 3-5 months.

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2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

 BSA should be helping to pay to include CO coverage OR they should exclude LC and COs from the settlement.   To only exclude COs and tell them “good luck” is not appropriate.

That's the toggle plan in a nutshell: BSA only.

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After sitting on these motions for seven months, she put them both on for hearing Monday. That tells me she is going to grant both motions, perhaps in some truncated form. Century Chubb will appeal. Will the survivors’ reps cooperate or likewise appeal?

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6 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

perhaps in some truncated form. Century Chubb will appeal. Will the survivors’ reps cooperate or likewise appeal?

Maybe. It depends how truncated. For example Century and Hartford wanted 1,400 document requests/interrogatories and 100 depositions. If she gives them anything less than everything, they'll appeal. But if is severely truncated (140 and 10), then I can see the survivors' reps saying "sure, let's get this over with."

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34 minutes ago, 1980Scouter said:

I think there is still some money out there especially from LC's. Mine has 20 million in assets and is paying 6.5 million into the settlement.  Not all LC's are like this but I was really surprised reading how much reserve funds some councils have. 

It would be an amazingly hard sell to tell LCs that a) they have to pay $X in order to get coverage/clearance for THEIR liability in this and then, separately and after the fact b) come BACK to the LCs and say "Now, pay more for the COs".

Moreover, I think the amounts that COs are going to have to put in is going to be really interesting.

Let me come back to this chart a second.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/213bd53f-b44f-45c9-97fc-246bcb7ca06b_4108.pdf

Unique and Timely Abuse Claim Count* by Top-20 Most Common Chartered Organizations

Chartered Organization Group

Unique & Timely Abuse Claim Count**

METHODIST CHURCH

3,760

BAPTIST CHURCH

3,157

CATHOLIC CHURCH

3,131

CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

2,430

PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH

1,611

LUTHERAN CHURCH

1,416

ARMED FORCES***

607

EPISCOPAL CHURCH

557

AMERICAN LEGION

477

YMCA

435

VFW

369

SALVATION ARMY

242

ELKS LODGE

222

LIONS CLUB

199

BOYS AND GIRLS CLUBS

195

KNIGHTS OF COLUMBUS

157

BOYS CLUB

129

KIWANIS CLUB

108

ROTARY CLUB

88

MOOSE LODGE

75

OTHER

20,985

UNKNOWN

36,496

MISSING

5,740

Total

82,586

 

The Methodists are looking at 3760 claims. We do NOT have data on how many are time-barred, but let's assume it is the same rate as for ALL claims of around 30%. That means they are looking at 1128 non-time-barred claims.

Let's just look at the total claims here a second, time-barred or not.

Let's take the Grand Canyon Council average payment (since they are an open state): $14,085 per claim. That's probably going to be the high end for the Methodists since not ALL claims are in open state. It could be HIGHER (since the Methodist Church as an institution has more assets than Grand Canyon) or lower (if the individual churches are being sued/claimed against). So, with those caveats aside:

3760 claims * $14,085 = $52,959,600.

If I were the Methodists, I would be absolutely flipping out right about now. And in fact many are.

But let's cut that in half. Again, not all open states AND the total average each victim will get from LCs is about half what Grand Canyon is paying (600,000,000/82,586 = $7265)

3760 claims * $7265 = $27,316,400

That's over $27 million just to get out from under this mess AND for the "privilege" of having a facilities use agreement?

Edited by CynicalScouter
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17 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

After sitting on these motions for seven months, she put them both on for hearing Monday

I also think there's an argument to be made that the FCR/TCC/Coalition has made a big stink about getting discovery from Chubb/Century starting in May but the Century/Hartford discovery motions have been pending since at least February.

If she's going to hear the discovery demands of one side, its own fair to hear the discovery demands from the other.

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10 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

  

It would be an amazingly hard sell to tell LCs that a) they have to pay $X in order to get coverage/clearance for THEIR liability in this and then, separately and after the fact b) come BACK to the LCs and say "Now, pay more".

Moreover, I think the amounts that COs are going to have to put in is going to be really interesting.

Let me come back to this chart a second.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/213bd53f-b44f-45c9-97fc-246bcb7ca06b_4108.pdf

Unique and Timely Abuse Claim Count* by Top-20 Most Common Chartered Organizations

Chartered Organization Group

Unique & Timely Abuse Claim Count**

METHODIST CHURCH

3,760

BAPTIST CHURCH

3,157

CATHOLIC CHURCH

3,131

CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

2,430

PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH

1,611

LUTHERAN CHURCH

1,416

ARMED FORCES***

607

EPISCOPAL CHURCH

557

AMERICAN LEGION

477

YMCA

435

VFW

369

SALVATION ARMY

242

ELKS LODGE

222

LIONS CLUB

199

BOYS AND GIRLS CLUBS

195

KNIGHTS OF COLUMBUS

157

BOYS CLUB

129

KIWANIS CLUB

108

ROTARY CLUB

88

MOOSE LODGE

75

OTHER

20,985

UNKNOWN

36,496

MISSING

5,740

Total

82,586

 

The Methodists are looking at 3760 claims. We do NOT have data on how many are time-barred, but let's assume it is the same rate as for ALL claims of around 30%. That means they are looking at 1128 non-time-barred claims.

Let's just look at the total claims here a second, time-barred or not.

Let's take the Grand Canyon Council average payment (since they are an open state): $14,085 per claim. That's probably going to be the high end for the Methodists since not ALL claims are in open state. It could be HIGHER (since the Methodist Church as an institution has more assets than Grand Canyon) or lower (if the individual churches are being sued/claimed against). So, with those caveats aside:

3760 claims * $14,085 = $52,959,600.

If I were the Methodists, I would be absolutely flipping out right about now. And in fact many are.

But let's cut that in half. Again, not all open states AND the total average each victim will get from LCs is about half what Grand Canyon is paying (600,000,000/82,586 = $7265)

3760 claims * $7265 = $27,316,400

That's over $27 million just to get out from under this mess AND for the "privilege" of having a facilities use agreement?

Very well said, last paragraph.  That sums it up in my opinion but we will see.

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14 minutes ago, 1980Scouter said:

Very well said, last paragraph.  That sums it up in my opinion but we will see.

It will be kind of moot because if these community organizations and churches have any exposure, there won't be any facilities to use. Most of them don't have any assets other than property. 

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9 minutes ago, yknot said:

 

It will be kind of moot because if these community organizations and churches have any exposure, there won't be any facilities to use. Most of them don't have any assets other than property. 

They will be forced into their own bankruptcies. That is next 

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1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

To only exclude COs and tell them “good luck” is not appropriate. 

It would be very unusual for the CO's to all show up at a council meeting to vote out the council leadership.  This might do it.

 

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On 8/27/2021 at 9:44 AM, Gilwell_1919 said:

Thank you. And I hope it does. As for Tim Kosnoff... I have had direct contact with that vulture (tim@kosnoff.com). He is the #1 perpetrator behind this IMHO. What I think is going on... 

These law firms hired on a third-party CA/MA company to get clients, all under the guise of the loosely pieced together AIS coalition. I am not going to say BSA definitely colluded with AIS, but based on what I have seen and how folks in my LC were being directed to files claims (even if they just want to provide information), makes me think there was something shady going on. Maybe this is just my own conjecture... but... all I can do is use the information and documents I have to analyze and formulate my own take on this situation. Nothing really makes sense... so, again, that is why I am reaching out to this forum. Timmy Kosnoff can monitor all he likes... I hope I am correct and this all comes out and he goes to jail. He is a visceral, rapacious (and repugnant) lawyer that offers nothing to humanity. 

Sir, I find your comments juvenile, vile and disgusting. You certainly disgrace the few decent people I have personally spoke with who are still trying to defend the organization as being still worth-while, in light of all that has happened in regard to rampant sexual abuse by Scouting leaders for decades.  Tim has been on my side for almost ten years, as I waited for some modicum of justice, after being sexually abused by three of my adult Scouting leaders but finding myself outside of "the law" (limitations stats) and it's inability to hold my abusers accountable for their crimes.  I went to the Boy Scouts back then, not now. Back then being 2013. And what did they do? After waiting on the phone for almost 20 minutes, they transferred me over to one of their attorneys. Because THAT is what they cared about the most, the legal ramifications of their actions, not the moral ones.  I see people in this thread bemoaning AIS and the sheer number of claims. I will have you know that many more boys in my own troop were being sexually abused and yet they never came forward and will never come forward, for reasons some of you dispassionate creeps will never understand. The shame of it all. I have even recently spoken with two of them. People I hadn't talked with in years. And they were willing to talk with me but they will never come forward for reasons many of you will never understand. The unwillingness to involve themselves in something they have deeply buried their whole lives. My life was ruined. My self-esteem shot. Can you imagine? Unless its happened to you, you cannot ever understand it. And the lack of empathy and understanding I have seen right here in this forum, belittles the notion that Scouting is a decent organization, instilling moral fiber in our youth.

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28 minutes ago, David CO said:

It would be very unusual for the CO's to all show up at a council meeting to vote out the council leadership.  This might do it.

Except that this has nothing to do withe Local Councils. The decision is BSA National's. The negotiations was between the COs and BSA National's leadership and lawyers. Moreover, for all you know the Local Council(s) are on the side of the COs vs. BSA National.

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44 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Moreover, for all you know the Local Council(s) are on the side of the COs vs. BSA National.

I assume this is a joke.  Good one.  :D

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