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Chapter 11 Announced - Part 4 Revised Plan


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Just to give a headsup on a line of objections that have been filed by hundreds of victims at this point that is almost verbatim the same. This particular objection is just an example, but covers the 5 major objections. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/95224a9d-6156-46f9-adfa-dc46f3a262d2_5963.pdf

In short the five (and my attempts at translation are)

(i) why should victims in time-barred states (whose claims are right now worth $0) be given the same vote as someone with a valid, timely, multi-million dollar claim? Moreover, since there are TENS of THOUSANDS of time-barred claims, those votes will "swamp" the votes of those victims with timely, valid claims.

In other words there should only be 14,000 voters (at most) and the other 59,500 sexual abuse claimants should get no say in this matter.

Put another way: why should 59,500 people whose claims amount to $0 (due to time barred) outvote the rest?

(ii) Why should a victim who potentially can recover tens or hundreds of thousands from the larger/more wealthy council have their vote "swamped" by those victims whose claims are against smaller, poorer councils that may only be valued at hundreds of dollars if not a few thousand?

(iii) BSA says $200 million is the best it can do. LCs say $650 million is the best they can do. While there's adequate data on BSA's exact financial status to determine if $200 million really is the best BSA can do, we have NO data on LCs.

(iv) Until we know exactly how much the COs are on the hook for, there's no way there should be a vote.

(v) Until we know exactly how much insurance companies will or won't have to pay (or at least the risks that the insurance companies may ultimately pay out squat due to coverage caps, etc.) there's no way there should be a vote

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@CynicalScouter Thanks from me and frankly, surely everyone, for tracking on the status of National's bankruptcy pleadings, and the procedural steps, past and pending, in the Bankruptcy case. And your

Okay. Enough. If you aren't talking about court proceedings then drop it.  It would be a shame to lock this thread now.

A few random observations from watching this bankruptcy unfold over the past several months: The focus has clearly been on protecting the national organization first and then the local councils.

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23 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

So ... is there now a whole new class of claimants who are now also time barred because they missed their state's open window? 

No. Well, probably not.

Back in February/March an agreement was reached to allow those claimants who were running out of time/open window to file suit against BSA and the LCs but those lawsuits would be automatically stayed pending the bankruptcy.

24 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Is there a new set of class actions to be done against law firms for explicit fraud and intentional incompetence? 

Maybe? That's going to be hard to tell until we start to get reviews of who signed what.

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54 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

That's not clear how she's going to handle these discovery squabbles, etc.

Oh, not all. It’s clear as mud, as my dad used to say. 

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2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

As have many who have done nothing noble, nothing good, nothing pure and nothing of any lasting value to anyone. Many have caused damage to people, property, society and the planet. I choose to recognize this "noble experience," whether others find it worthy or not. 

Please.  The man has done nothing noble.  He simply played the system to his benefit by praying on vague innuendo and the media hype to find a sympathetic jury and judge in the past.  But, you all know what I really think, I just cannot say it.  Carrion.

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27 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

What do you mean by this?  Could you expound please?

It is an opinion based on his general history and the long media blitz he engineered.  You can take it as you choose, but to me, his actions are those of someone with personal gain as the goal and to hell with the total truth.  It was him that dubbed the "Ineligible Volunteer" files as the "Perversion" files and pushed the media to not tell anywhere near the complete picture.  The truth that many of the files had little or nothing to do with abuse of any type, but were for other things; but that was conveniently left out with his skewed attacks.  That one word, perversion, likely has done more damage than anything else,, even if it tells very little of the realities within those file,s.  Not saying he should not have won, only that the level of hype and amount of the payout was onerous and extreme.  But, that is the way of our legal system for many things.  An insurance policy for injury may specify, for example, $x amount for the loss of X.  But, if the right lawyer gets to it, it often can grow to ten times that or more, all based on playing on the sympathy of a jury and the current atmosphere of the public exposure.  And, he is that kind of lawyer, or was anyway.  Not sure he is one now, which in itself is part of the larger picture.  We have no boundaries on many lawsuits, and too often they draw media hype to the extreme and end up being totally out of perspective and common sense.  Again, just my view of him and our legal system.  And it does not help when a judge is swayed to the bounds of logic and perspective.  

Edited by skeptic
clarity and more detail
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1 hour ago, skeptic said:

Please. 

Thank you and you're welcome.

Spend 50 years drowning in nightmares, therapy, in and out-patient treatment, depression, suicidal ideation, self-disgust, doubt and deprecation...after being raped at 10 and then repeatedly by a Scout Master you thought worthy of your trust and admiration and THEN come talk to me about what is or is not noble about an attorney who represents people like me. You literally have no standing whatsoever to opine on this subject. None. You are on the outside looking in upon a subject matter and life so complex you are only picking up vague, fleeting images of things you cannot comprehend and choose not to fully research or examine. Go back to knots and tin foil dinners. Please and thank you, yet again.

Edited by ThenNow
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19 minutes ago, skeptic said:

to me, his actions are those of someone with personal gain as the goal and to hell with the total truth.

Please enlighten me on this "total truth" of which you speak. That the IVF contained others who did not sexually assault, rape, abuse and exploit the boys under their care? How many in the Files did? Isn't it the case that the BSA knew of at least 7000+ when the proverbial cat was forced out of the bag? That "total truth"?

20 minutes ago, skeptic said:

I am not saying that his win was not right, only that the level of hype and amount of the payout was onerous and extreme.  But, that is the way of our legal system for many things.  An insurance policy for injury may specify, for example, $x amount for the loss of X.  But, if the right lawyer gets to it, it often can grow to ten times that or more, all based on playing on the sympathy of a jury and the current atmosphere of the public exposure. 

As you'll see throughout my history of posts, it continues to baffle me that you (and others) blame anyone for utilizing or leveraging the target BSA painted on its back by the things it did and the all too many things it refused to do in order to protect itself, its donors and its membership roster. You gotta have a cause of action to bring an action and these were doozies. Am I right or am I right? I know. I'm right. 

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10 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Thank you and you're welcome.

Spend 50 years drowning in nightmares, therapy, in and out-patient treatment, depression, suicidal ideation, self-disgust, doubt and deprecation...after being raped at 10 and then repeatedly by a Scout Master you thought worthy of your trust and admiration and THEN come talk to me about what is or is not noble about an attorney who represents people like me. You literally have no standing whatsoever to opine on this subject. None. You are on the outside looking in upon a subject matter and life so complex you are only picking up vague, fleeting images of things you cannot comprehend and choose not to fully research or examine. Go back to knots and tin foil dinners. Please and thank you, yet again.

My opinion of Mr. K has no reflection on your personal tragedy,  It does not take away the reality of what you have suffered, nor does it suggest that your personal experience is not worth a valid response.  But, as has been thrown all around, what is it worth?  You have admitted that it is the recognition of the wrong that is important, not the level of payout, which is what Mr. K only cares about, based on his actions statements.  

Just as you note that I know nothing about your suffering, other than what you have shared.  That does not mean that my opinion of the larger picture is invalid, only that nothing anyone does will ever cure your damage. It also does not mean that I, or many others may not have suffered unredeemable pain in some manner, just not related to this monstrous kind.  Most, if not all, have had their moments of pure emotional trauma and carry a dark spot in our hearts.  Punish the actual perpetrator to the nth degree, and that is not even a question.  But, do not try to correct the larger problems of a warped society by ruining an overall good organization by painting them as the monster in the room.  They made huge mistakes and many had bad judgement, but as discussed ad infinitum, that is reflective of the larger society in place then, and a change in that view today.  

But please do not make those of us that choose to look at the picture from a broader view and do not want the baby thrown out with the water as the bad guys.  I hope you can somehow find the help you really need, but I doubt that the worst scenario with this fiasco will do much to cure it.  Good luck.  

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8 minutes ago, skeptic said:

My opinion of Mr. K has no reflection on your personal tragedy,  It does not take away the reality of what you have suffered, nor does it suggest that your personal experience is not worth a valid response. 

You did not state an “opinion of Mr. K.” You said he has “done nothing noble.” Making that comment about a successful child sexual abuse attorney goes directly to my experience and tragedy. What he did was represent people like me. What he got was a lot of money because he did it well, very well, within the system that was given him. What you think he is or is not, that goes to your opinion of Mr. K., the man. Saying what he did is not noble is, in fact, an insult to victims like me, however unintended.

13 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Just as you note that I know nothing about your suffering, other than what you have shared.  That does not mean that my opinion of the larger picture is invalid, only that nothing anyone does will ever cure your damage.

I love it when you sound all psychologisty. Makes me all goose bumpy. Again, you know not of which you speak. That second sentence is a riddle. I have no idea how you arrived at the final conclusion based on the preceding sentence and part one of sentence two. “Cure” is for diseases. Healing is for wounds. Now I’m diseased...

17 minutes ago, skeptic said:

But, as has been thrown all around, what is it worth? 

Time and dollar signs will tell. I’m not counting chickens nor am I counting myself out. 

18 minutes ago, skeptic said:

You have admitted that it is the recognition of the wrong that is important, not the level of payout

You have mistaken me for someone else. I never said that because it is in no wise how I feel. Not in the slightest. Others have said similar things, but not me. I have clearly said the opposite. My last rant about “what would help victims,” as in generally, was in direct response to a specific ask. I made a list and even that list clearly featured reference to stacks of Benjamins. Stacks and stack.

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44 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Thank you and you're welcome.

Spend 50 years drowning in nightmares, therapy, in and out-patient treatment, depression, suicidal ideation, self-disgust, doubt and deprecation...after being raped at 10 and then repeatedly by a Scout Master you thought worthy of your trust and admiration and THEN come talk to me about what is or is not noble about an attorney who represents people like me. You literally have no standing whatsoever to opine on this subject. None. You are on the outside looking in upon a subject matter and life so complex you are only picking up vague, fleeting images of things you cannot comprehend and choose not to fully research or examine. Go back to knots and tin foil dinners. Please and thank you, yet again.

Don’t forget those Dutch oven cobblers we all use to love. That is until Dutch oven and anything scouting was synonymous with abuse. I can’t even remember why they were called Dutch ovens. Oh, and then there were the eggs in a basket. In all fairness silence of the lambs ruined that one for me. 

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So I think Century is calling BSA's bluff on the documents and depositions that BSA says are not subject to discovery.

In short, and with Century putting a lot of things confidential, BSA is claiming a truck load of documents and whole sections of BSA depositions are protected and/or privileged, in particular mediation privilege

Century's solution appears to file ALL the contested documents and depositions with the court and have the judge review them (the publicly available versions are redacted, so no sneak peaks).

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/0bd2073b-8b3a-4524-9947-4c4130f49d80_5975.pdf

Tomorrow could be mostly complaints about

  1. BSA not producing documents to the insurers
  2. The insurers and/or Chubb and Century in particular not producing documents to the TCC/FCR/Coalition
  3. Hartford in particular not producing documents for the TCC/FCR/Coalition

And remember: the hearing is on a clock. It starts at 10am but the judge has another hearing at 2:30pm. The entire day may turn into a food fight over discovery and have zero to do with the actual RSA.

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Re: punish the actual perp , not the overall good organization. 
 

when referencing a ‘warped society’ I imagine that includes the overall good organization. In short, they hid and covered up the truth of years of sexual abuse brought by adult men, in the overall good organizations uniform, onto young boys. That is not an overall good attribute. We are as ugly as our worse crimes. Society is afraid to look at, talk about, let alone examine child sexual abuse. We, the abused, are not. We are merely talking about it as loud as we can. What is ironic about this whole thing is we are still not having the talk, even though the overall good organization is being put to task. This is about “save my camp” and “get the overall good organization out of bankruptcy “ oh and “ continue to rape the actual survivors by turning it all into a fiasco and circus” 

here are the facts: men had sex with boys. Under the guise of scouting. 
 

to defend and minimize this is to perpetuate the ignorance that leaves us in a warped society. There is no justification. We are starting the un warping at the BSA. No better place. (I don’t know the opposite of warp) (to warp or not to warp? That is the question.) 

“warp speed scotty” 

“I’ve given it all she’s got captain”

”not even close” 

Also, where in thee hell is cancel culture when you need them? 

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10 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

The entire day may turn into a food fight over discovery and have zero to do with the actual RSA.

Yes! I’m officially nominating Animal House as the new analogy to replace The Circus. Perfect. 

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