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Chapter 11 Announced - Part 4 Revised Plan


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9 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Signatures mean something.  Words on the paper set expectations.  If you don't plan to fulfill the words, don't sign!

The same could be said for councils and National. I know of councils not fulfilling their end of the paperwork, yet signing anyway. And as for insurance, no limits were ever discussed or mentioned in the paperwork people signed.

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@CynicalScouter Thanks from me and frankly, surely everyone, for tracking on the status of National's bankruptcy pleadings, and the procedural steps, past and pending, in the Bankruptcy case. And your

Okay. Enough. If you aren't talking about court proceedings then drop it.  It would be a shame to lock this thread now.

A few random observations from watching this bankruptcy unfold over the past several months: The focus has clearly been on protecting the national organization first and then the local councils.

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7 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

And as for insurance, no limits were ever discussed or mentioned in the paperwork people signed.

Agreed. It also didn’t reference another document that stated limits and other conditions. The way it reads to me is that it is indemnification of all liability. 

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9 hours ago, fred8033 said:

 

Even without the latest lawsuit and insurance issues, charter orgs should sign the agreement. 

Signatures mean something.  Words on the paper set expectations.  If you don't plan to fulfill the words, don't sign!   COs need to do-what-they-say and say-what-they-do

  • Encourage training (lack of training is fault). 
  • Maintain membership (unregisterd adults / youth is admitting it's out of control). 
  • Follow BSA program, GTSS, etc (not following indicates rouge program) ... etc ... 
  • Review unit leader apps.  Make follow-up inquires to confirm moral, educational and emotional qualities.

It's not just about after-the-fact libability.  It's about doing hat you say you will do.  If you don't plan to actually do what is in the agreement, don't sign.  It's not an honorific documents.  It's an "agreement".

Our charter org is absolutely glad to provide space.   I suspect they'd even donate fund or materials.  The real issue is their signing this agreement says they want to take responsibility they don't want.  I  hugely agree they should not sign.

Churches and public facilities will continue to support community organizations like the scouts.   Even without the current COs, units can find space.  Even cheaply rent space.   

This is about making the CO agreement match the current reality.  Most COs agree to provide space.  Very few actively oversee teh scouting program.

"WHAT IF" ... Latest registration costs are skyrocketing.  What if current unit leaders decide to help families that are tight on funds, by not registering their scout.  Scout can participate, but BSA won't know about cub's advancement ... except AOL does t really matter?  Slso, adults will be minimized to save pack cost.   ... So some adults and scouts are not fully registered.   Would the CO know?  Would the CO know they are taking responsibility for that?  

 

 

Most COs I know would likely never sign if they were truly expected to meet all of the obligations listed.  Ours has no buildings and we struggle to even find a COR to sign every year.  I know a few that had their COs drop them and they spent months finding any organization even willing to sign a document (one found a fire station and the other ended up creating a friends of CO as no organization).

It’s time for BSA to fully embrace a no CO model as a parallel path.  That would mean no CO, no IH, no COR and the CC is given that the voting rights in council activities.  

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1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

It’s time for BSA to fully embrace a no CO model as a parallel path.  That would mean no CO, no IH, no COR and the CC is given that the voting rights in council activities.  

Similarly, likely no "CO" National Executive Board members which I believe is being or has been downsized.

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5 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

It’s time for BSA to fully embrace a no CO model as a parallel path.  ... and the CC is given ...  voting rights in council activities

I like that last part. 

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20 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Even without the latest lawsuit and insurance issues, charter orgs should sign the agreement. 

Signatures mean something.  Words on the paper set expectations.  If you don't plan to fulfill the words, don't sign!   COs need to do-what-they-say and say-what-they-do

  • Encourage training (lack of training is fault). 
  • Maintain membership (unregisterd adults / youth is admitting it's out of control). 
  • Follow BSA program, GTSS, etc (not following indicates rouge program) ... etc ... 
  • Review unit leader apps.  Make follow-up inquires to confirm moral, educational and emotional qualities.

It's not just about after-the-fact libability.  It's about doing hat you say you will do.  If you don't plan to actually do what is in the agreement, don't sign.  It's not an honorific documents.  It's an "agreement".

Our charter org is absolutely glad to provide space.   I suspect they'd even donate fund or materials.  The real issue is their signing this agreement says they want to take responsibility they don't want.  I  hugely agree they should not sign.

Churches and public facilities will continue to support community organizations like the scouts.   Even without the current COs, units can find space.  Even cheaply rent space.   

This is about making the CO agreement match the current reality.  Most COs agree to provide space.  Very few actively oversee teh scouting program.

"WHAT IF" ... Latest registration costs are skyrocketing.  What if current unit leaders decide to help families that are tight on funds, by not registering their scout.  Scout can participate, but BSA won't know about cub's advancement ... except AOL does t really matter?  Slso, adults will be minimized to save pack cost.   ... So some adults and scouts are not fully registered.   Would the CO know?  Would the CO know they are taking responsibility for that?  

Argh ... I just re-read my writing ... Wow did I blow it.  ... I should never connect and try to say something meaningful when I'm extremely tired.  I add, edit, etc until I'm too tired to make sure it's really written well.   So much for trying to be insightful.

My point is simple.  Times have changed.  Fifty years ago people would often say "let's be realistic" about what was really expected.  Today, it is all in the words.  Words matter.  The written word can be used against you and often will be used against you far beyond anything you ever intended.  

COs should NOT sign documents that contain words they are not willing to own and follow.  

Even without this large liability case, this is very true.  Times have changed.  The idea of a "CO" that is not really an owner and not really in charge is a bad idea.  If COs are to really sign on as a CO, ... if a church ... the CO needs to spend church funds to pay their business administrators and youth pastors to help run the scouting programs.  Make sure training is current.  Make sure plans are safe per safe scouting rules.  Make sure background checks work.  Scouting is either an internal program owned and run by the CO, or they should NOT sign saying they are doing those activities.  

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On 7/16/2021 at 10:44 AM, ThenNow said:

Mass Tort Attorneys: Judges Want to Know About Your Outside Financing

Here is the entire article, courtesy of a friend at Bloomberg. Worth a read. Makes me crabbier that this judge does not have an eye to the judges overseeing actual mass tort cases, as opposed to the same masquerading as a Chapter 11. Grrrr. 

 

Law.com, Mass Tort Attorneys_ Judges Want to Know About Your Outside Financing.pdf

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56 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Has this channel been quiet for almost a full day?

It appears so. Maybe everyone left us here to rot and wither in ignorance and lack of socialization due to some unexpressed desire for a sabbatical. Or, everyone is reading my article very slowly and translating it into multiple language for international distribution. Or, we offended the rest. Or, this all was settled amicably and no one told us. I’ve been vexing about this without explanation, other than my attempts to humor myself. 

Edited by ThenNow
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11 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

It appears so. Maybe everyone left us here to rot and wither in ignorance and lack of socialization due to some unexpressed desire for a sabbatical. Or, everyone is reading my article very slowly and translating it into multiple language for international distribution. Or, we offended the rest. Or, this all was settled amicably and no one told us. I’ve been vexing about this without explanation, other than my attempts to humor myself. 

Your carefully-chosen humor to relieve the seriousness / stress of this topic is always appreciated.

Edited by fred8033
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3 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

…is at camp! I know I am!

Sure. Thanks. Rub it in why don’t ya! Now that you say that, I was always at camp over the date on which my mother decided it was time to launch me into the great wide world of the unknown, the inexplicable and a place where I was soon forced to eat and sleep and poop according to the dictates of human convention. I always resented that. It was much easier before she went and did that to me. I think I’ll call her and remind her just how rude that was. Be right back...

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14 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

…is at camp! I know I am!

Real camps don't have wifi. Go sit on a rock and enjoy the breeze. :)

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4 minutes ago, MattR said:

Real camps don't have wifi. 

... 20 years ago. 

Now, I can do remote desktop screen sharing using cell phone from most camps in my state.  Often, I'm lucky enough to have reasonably high speed data inside the tent.  ... real question now is "why"

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On 7/18/2021 at 1:13 PM, MattR said:

I like that last part. 

You do realize that the COR has had the right to sit on the Executive board for decades do you not?  Just because few do, it has been in place a long time and on rare occasion has resulted in dismissal of a Council executive and major changes.  But, since few ever pay any attention, too many boards run amuck with power people who want recognition or to do things "their way" and to "their" benefit.  

Going clear back to the original Dale quagmire, IF this had been done, it would have been left in the lap of the CO to make the decision.  But, somehow, those erudite "forward thinkers" decided it should become a public drama and political football.  The CO and the actual unit never had an issue with Mr. Dale, even after his trip into college politics and personal reflection.  He did not make the initial choice to become public with his personal life, it was forced by some idiot (yes, I know a strong or maybe insulting word) who saw his name in regard to the political football of the time and felt obligated to make it a big deal.  Even then, if National had simply put it back to the unit and CO, it might have played out far differently.

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