ThenNow 1373 Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 24 minutes ago, skeptic said: I keep seeing individuals comment that BSA has to somehow guarantee this can never happen again. It can guarantee it will wholeheartedly accept and implement all YPT measures presented by the TCC to ensure they are doing everything possible to strive for zero tolerance. It can commit to never again engaging in baldfaced denial. It can commit to genuine transparency, aggressive enforcement and rigorous disclosure. In so doing, it will be showing it is serious about combatting CSA in Scouting. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
69RoadRunner 375 Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 56 minutes ago, ThenNow said: It can guarantee it will wholeheartedly accept and implement all YPT measures presented by the TCC to ensure they are doing everything possible to strive for zero tolerance. It can commit to never again engaging in baldfaced denial. It can commit to genuine transparency, aggressive enforcement and rigorous disclosure. In so doing, it will be showing it is serious about combatting CSA in Scouting. Well said. I think the current YPT measures are very good. They do rely on people following them. A conspiracy of 2 registered adults could result in a failure. Let's all do our part to provide a safe program for the youth in our charge. I know the victims will forever be affected by what happened to them. I hope they are able to find some peace in their lives. And last, I hope Avis has our 2 vans at the Miami airport so we can get to Sea Base on Monday. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Muttsy 137 Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 The problem with believing that non-monetary provisions in a bankruptcy plan will matter much is that they are unenforceable. The code does not allow for setting up a “consent decree” type of regulatory regimen that would be enforceable by the Justice Department and the federal district court. The post confirmation trustee is charged with bringing actions to increase the size of the settlement pot. The bankruptcy court cannot and will not keep the case open for years to monitor whether BSA complies with whatever non-monetary provisions may be contained in the plan I’ve seen this before from Stang and other official committees. It’s all window dressing to get survivors to vote for a plan. Don’t buy it. Aside from current National and local leadership’s demonstrated denialism, lies and studied ignorance about the problem, it is true that there are millions of obsessive compulsive child molesters who cannot and will not stop themselves. When famed Depression-era robber Willie Sutton was asked why he robbed banks, his answer was more than satisfactory: “Because that’s where the money is.” Same with kids and especially scouts The current model of BSA won’t meaningfully stop the abusers from gaining access to an organization based on trust and on amateurs as the first line of defense. How many here have any experience in human resource departments, security clearance investigations, background checks methods? Can anyone here tell me what “double-deep” background checks are? Any idea what the $ cost is to do an applicant screen even at an average Fortune 500 company? Or at a media organization? If not, then stop deluding yourself 1 Link to post Share on other sites
ThenNow 1373 Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Muttsy said: The post confirmation trustee is charged with bringing actions to increase the size of the settlement pot. The bankruptcy court cannot and will not keep the case open for years to monitor whether BSA complies with whatever non-monetary provisions may be contained in the plan I’ve seen this before from Stang and other official committees. It’s all window dressing to get survivors to vote for a plan. Don’t buy it. Precisely why I couched it in terms of “it” and “they.” If they don’t do all I suggested, shame is on them! Also, those non-monetary components were never on my radar. I’m in it for the money and public chastisement. I’m now onboard with the state criminal investigations. PS - Tongue slightly lodged in cheek on that middle part. Edited June 20, 2021 by ThenNow Link to post Share on other sites
WisconsinMomma 217 Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 Our council has two camps and sent a survey asking members about them. It sounds likely that one or maybe both would be sold. Our up north camp was sold a while back. It is hard to say one camp is better than the other, as we have good memories at both. One camp has much better facilities and cabins, the other is more wild. I think either could be made into a subdivision or whatever if sold. The up north camp has had nothing happen with it as far as I know. Link to post Share on other sites
WisconsinMomma 217 Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 2 hours ago, 69RoadRunner said: Well said. I think the current YPT measures are very good. They do rely on people following them. A conspiracy of 2 registered adults could result in a failure. Let's all do our part to provide a safe program for the youth in our charge. I know the victims will forever be affected by what happened to them. I hope they are able to find some peace in their lives. And last, I hope Avis has our 2 vans at the Miami airport so we can get to Sea Base on Monday. I agree that the YPT training is very good. Very, very good and I'd even say it may be the gold standard for youth protection at this point in time in the United States. If you have not seen it, take a look. Note it may be triggering, it makes me feel very emotional and it is memorable and important information. Link to post Share on other sites
ThenNow 1373 Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 (edited) 38 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said: If you have not seen it, take a look. Note it may be triggering, it makes me feel very emotional and it is memorable and important information. I’ve been through it, per BSA volunteer requirements. I guess I’m downright certified, sanctified and verified?! (I thought it was good and recommended it to others I know who work in child advocacy.) Since being on this forum, I’ve learned of its limitations and things that can be done much better. Training, recertification, monitoring and reporting specifically. Edited June 20, 2021 by ThenNow Link to post Share on other sites
ThenNow 1373 Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 1 hour ago, ThenNow said: I guess I’m downright certified, sanctified and verified?! That reads way sarcastic. That wasn’t my intent. I was trying to say, “It ain’t one and done never more to be revisited or scrutinized for major and minor adjustments. Now is a good time. I don’t know anything about what Muttsy referenced re Jim Stang & Co. At this point, perhaps due to ignorance, I don’t have that cynicism. I would like to hear more about that, if you would, sir. Link to post Share on other sites
fred8033 1590 Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 1 hour ago, ThenNow said: Since being on this forum, I’ve learned of its limitations and things that can be done much better. Training, recertification, monitoring and reporting specifically. All for improving YPT. Improve reporting. People need to recognize abuse happens. It's real. It often happens by people you trust; not just the creepy guy driving an ice cream truck. ... BSA YPT is good with rules and guides, but weak on opening your eyes to take it seriously. It's opposite of the first VIRTUS trainings I took. VIRUS opened my eyes with cringe worthy video interviews of abusers from jail. Statistics. Grooming practices. Darn creepy stuff, but it opened eyes to say "This is real. Take it seriously." VIRTUS was weaker on rules and guides, but it was extremely good to make you take it seriuosly. I even argue we need to re-engineer the program to allow a safer program. Though patrol method and scout-led, etc are sacrosanct, there is much we could do. Heck, it's also an opportunity to recognize the very-simple-concepts that define scouting is difficult for many to implement. What I mean is ... I've seen patrol method and scout-led messed up so much that I just don't trust when people argue these concepts anymore. ... What I have mostly seen done well is ... Let's go canoeing. Let's hike to the top of that mountain. Let's learn to water-ski. Let's do a 50 mile bike trip. Let's sleep under the stars. Let's go camp and tour this national monument. ... Link to post Share on other sites
johnsch322 524 Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 So if the revised plan is passed as is, will lawsuits against the insurers be allowed on an individual basis i.e. survivor in California which has look back? Link to post Share on other sites
Muttsy 137 Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 It appears that all of the policies will be assigned to the trust. That is expected. The are only a few states that allow a direct action against the insurance company by the beneficial party in interest aka the plaintiff/claimant. Link to post Share on other sites
johnsch322 524 Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 7 minutes ago, Muttsy said: It appears that all of the policies will be assigned to the trust. That is expected. The are only a few states that allow a direct action against the insurance company by the beneficial party in interest aka the plaintiff/claimant. So if one were to opt out of the settlement could the BSA, LC be sued? Link to post Share on other sites
CynicalScouter 1434 Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, johnsch322 said: So if one were to opt out of the settlement could the BSA, LC be sued? I believe that because this is a bankruptcy, you cannot opt out of the settlement and then go sue BSA: this is intended to settle ALL and I mean ALL claims prior to February 2020 against BSA. As for the LCs, if the LC doesn't "buy into" the settlement, then they are not covered and therefore you can sue them. Since the insurance companies (other than Hartford) are also not covered, they are on the hook down the road as well. As noted, most states will not allow direct suits on insurance companies, Instead, a victim will sue BSA and the LC, the BSA and the LC will then file with the court a copy of the bankruptcy settlement and direct that it be lawsuit dismissed, and that all claims will be channeled into the Settlement. The exact mechanics of that will be TBD. Edited June 21, 2021 by CynicalScouter 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Eagle1993 2160 Posted June 21, 2021 Author Share Posted June 21, 2021 21 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said: Our council has two camps and sent a survey asking members about them. It sounds likely that one or maybe both would be sold. Our up north camp was sold a while back. Us too. Tight timeline to respond. We were told we will know by August. They council was saying there are 19 camps in Wisconsin so no they can probably do with less. Unfortunately every council is saying that and I’m currently at a camp that was sold (in Wisconsin). Link to post Share on other sites
johnsch322 524 Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 Just now, CynicalScouter said: I believe that because this is a bankruptcy, you cannot opt out of the settlement and then go sue BSA: this is intended to settle ALL and I mean ALL claims prior to February 2020 against BSA. As for the LCs, if the LC doesn't "buy into" the settlement, then they are not covered and therefore you can sue them. Since the insurance companies (other than Hartford) are also not covered, they are on the hook down the road as well. So if my LC opts into the settlement I have to depend on the trustee to go after the insurance company? I cannot go after them as an individual? I am a little confused. Link to post Share on other sites
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