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Chapter 11 announced - Part 3 - BSA's Toggle Plan


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Forums work well in many ways, but it is probably not the best way to discuss the difficult feelings of this bankruptcy while also discussing the impact to child sex abuse survivors.  However, there a

The mental fallout from my abuse was mostly dormant prior to the current lawsuit. It would still torment me in idle moments. Or at night sometimes when I lay in bed trying not to blame myself after so

I would like to not lock the thread but we seem to be in a rut that we need to get out of before any progress can be made. Here are some observations that might help. First, human dignity is the

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1 minute ago, johnsch322 said:

The silence on this topic right now is deafening.

There's nothing much to say at this point that hasn't already been said. Everything comes down to what the mediation Monday-Thursday holds and what the Friday court hearing does.

I imagine Century/Chubb will continue to fight document production for the rest of the week regardless, but if the real conversation/mediation is between BSA (and LCs?)  and the TCC/FCR/Coalition, then the Chubb/Century fighting becomes a side show/to be fought out later.

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11 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

There's nothing much to say at this point that hasn't already been said. Everything comes down to what the mediation Monday-Thursday holds and what the Friday court hearing does.

I imagine Century/Chubb will continue to fight document production for the rest of the week regardless, but if the real conversation/mediation is between BSA (and LCs?)  and the TCC/FCR/Coalition, then the Chubb/Century fighting becomes a side show/to be fought out later.

You are correct.  This lull in posting has given me a chance to read postings on other topics.  I have gotten the distinct impression that the average scouter/leader really wants all of this to be resolved.  Between the bankruptcy and Covid BSA as a whole has had a very rough year.

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A friend of mine sits on various national mediation tables.  There are apparently multiple "tables" that change composition and deal with specific issues. It is a position that he could not have imagined himself being in two years ago.

We never discuss specifics because of confidentiality. Just impressions sometimes.  Words like "contentious" and "mess" come up.

How could this not be a mess?

Tens of thousands of traumatic abuse claims.

Billions of dollars at stake.

Camps, councils and programs that Scouts and Scouters have poured their passion, time and energy into are at risk.

A century old program that has survived world wars and depressions feeling like it could be on the verge of collapse.

Enough attorneys to sink a battleship or perhaps the Titanic.

Yes, bankruptcies are messy. And this one especially so. 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Muttsy said:

Why does scouting need a BSA at all? Can’t or shouldn’t LC’s have the freedom to develop programming that is tailored to the needs of its scouts and community?

Lower case "s" scouting does not.

But if you want Boy Scouts of America scouting, then BSA National (by virtue of the Charter and trademarks on top of that) gets to dictate what that Boy Scouts of America scouting program looks like.

Come back around to the franchise model for a second. Sure, you can open your own hamburger joint and name it Muttsy's. But if you want to sell McDonald's burgers and attract customers based on that name, you do it the McD's way, not your own.

Same here. Imagine the chaos, for a second, if one Council decided to simply combine all Cub Scout Dens into one, put out its own Cub programs and levels, but still maintained and called itself Cub Scouts. That's not going to work.

To take it even more extreme: let's say that Local Council A decides it doesn't like the current set of Eagle Required merit badges and decides to substitute its own. The Local Council B decides to only require Eagles need 5 merit badges and scouts can pick whatever they want. Etc.

Now, if you want to form your OWN scouting program, go ahead and go off independent. The formerly known Baden-Powell group did just that. But if you want to affiliate with a national name (Boy Scouts of America), then you adhere to their program, you don't get to use the name and then come up with whatever it is you want to do.

 

Edited by CynicalScouter
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Posted (edited)

Ok ... moved the National Annual Meeting discussion to the NAM thread here:

I also created a new discussion regarding LDS Abuse Handling.  It seemed to start a bit related to CH11, but then diverted a lot and may be missed by others who are interested.  

 

Edited by Eagle1993
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On 6/3/2021 at 12:44 PM, CynicalScouter said:

That's the key problem the judge is facing: it may be that NO amount the BSA offers will EVER get 2/3rds vote (again, $1.4 billion/82,500 claims = $17,000).

I want to come back to this because I read today's redacted victim letters and again, the "BSA only wants to pay $6,000 and that's not enough" came up.

I am more worried than ever that there will never, ever be a 2/3rds vote to approve a BSA bankruptcy. As I noted on June 3, even if BSA was somehow completely and totally liquidated and ALL assets turned over to the settlement fund, that number will only be $17,000.

The latest public number (not necessarily the latest number, but the latest public number) was $425 million/~$6000 per claim. Let say that BSA comes up to $7000 per.

In any such scenario,  the victims attorneys have to in effect argue to their clients that they should take the offer ($7000? $8000?) because there is nothing left for BSA to give. That means the Coalition I guess? But even then, getting to 2/3rds? I just don't know.

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21 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

In any such scenario,  the victims attorneys have to in effect argue to their clients that they should take the offer ($7000? $8000?) because there is nothing left for BSA to give. That means the Coalition I guess? But even then, getting to 2/3rds? I just don't know.

While it is of great concern to many on this forum, and for obvious yet different reasons, the BSA and LC assets are only one piece of the pie and probably the smallest.  The biggest is the insurers.  Claimants will have to consider the "whole" pie.

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Hey I'm new to this website and this discussion thread so sorry if it is explained deeper in the thread, but I don't understand how the numbers vary so much. Like cynical scouter just used 1.4 billion as the expected number but the quote I  posted is from an article that I believe I was sent by my lawyer as an update on the case.

 

Quote

The two camps differ wildly on estimated costs of the abuse. The Boy Scouts said in its latest plan that its claims expert estimates the cost of settling the claims at between $2.4 billion and $7.1 billion. The claimants' committee says it will be more than $100 billion. 

I don't know if I'm allowed to link to outside sites but its from a USA TODAY article. 

 

I just don't understand how their can be such a huge gap between the TCC and BSA groups and even between the 1.4 billion vs the 2-7 mentioned in the article. Like I get that both sides want to maximize the payout/ minimize damage but the gap still seems extreme to me. So I guess my question is what is the boy scout settlement expected to be? 

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33 minutes ago, AnonEagle said:

Like cynical scouter just used 1.4 billion as the expected number but the quote I  posted is from an article that I believe I was sent by my lawyer as an update on the case.

Hi and welcome.

You are correct about how far apart the sides are on damage amounts.

$1.4 billion is the TOTAL BSA assets. That's selling EVERYTHING BSA has to its name. Of course, that's unrealistic since a) BSA is not getting liquidated and b) even if all $1.4 billion is sold off, there are other debts BSA would have to pay with that $1.4 billion as well.

The number I expect BSA will pay is more than the $425 million it has offered but less than full liquidation $1.4 billion. Of course, that number is JUST the BSA contribution. There are contributions that have to come from

  • Local Councils
  • Chartered Organizations and
  • Insurance companies (for BSA, the Local Councils, and the Chartered Organizations, or some combo)
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

The number I expect BSA will pay is more than the $425 million it has offered but less than full liquidation $1.4 billion.

You might be getting some numbers mixed up. $425 million is just the most-recent Local Council contribution. That's $5,150 per claimant (using the latest figure of timely non-duplicate claims I've seen), or $4,950 per claimant (using the figure from back in February).

The $6,000 per claimant that's been tossed around is, I believe, from the BSA plus Local Council contributions back in the Second Amended plan, filed March 1st. (@MYCVAStory , feel free to correct me if the $6,000 was just the TCC's estimate of the artwork, oil-and-gas leases, and cash.)  Assuming the BSA portion hasn't changed, the BSA plus Local Council portion is now about $7750 per claimant, in the Global Resolution option of the Third Amended plan.  But if the debtors and committees are burning $10 million a month in legal fees, that's $120 less per month per claimant.

 

Edited by DavidLeeLambert
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13 minutes ago, DavidLeeLambert said:

(@MYCVAStory , feel free to correct me if the $6,000 was just the TCC's estimate of the artwork, oil-and-gas leases, and cash.) 

That's basically correct but it doesn't matter.  It included the sum of all values on artwork.  The artwork, which is made up of Rockwells and a lot of other artists has MAJOR issues.  First, any time you dump a lot of an artist on the market you decrease the value because of the increased supply.  If you hold it off the market and sell gradually then you incur storage and selling fees.  The best solution is to sell it all to one collector.  The problem then is that it will be at a significant discount.  Oh, and the value of Rockwells, right now as you can imagine they are declining if there's a significant Boy Scout component because they are "tainted" by all of this.  So, cash is king and realistic valuations on artwork, leases, and potentially camps is queen.  Apologies for the misogyny.

 

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1 hour ago, DavidLeeLambert said:

You might be getting some numbers mixed up

You are correct. My bad.

The BSA contribution is either Global Resolution Plan: $119.9 million (if global) or $99 million (if Toggle plan)

That's still peanuts $120 million/82500 = $1454

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2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

 

You are correct. My bad.

The BSA contribution is either Global Resolution Plan: $119.9 million (if global) or $99 million (if Toggle plan)

That's still peanuts $120 million/82500 = $1454

When you put it like that...how can they not sell some HIgh Adventure lands? 

We were so close to 100 pages! Waiting....how much and when?

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