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Chapter 11 announced - Part 3 - BSA's Toggle Plan


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4 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

Do open Ineligible Volunteer Files (IVF) mean listed by name?  If not, by identifiers such as council?  So who will defend the lawsuits by people defamed by accusations that have not been proven?  Who will defend the lawsuits from people placed in the IVF because they were accused of theft of funds from a unit or the council bu.t were defamed by being associated with the IVF?

From the TCC Townhall, they did mention that there would be redactions.  

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Forums work well in many ways, but it is probably not the best way to discuss the difficult feelings of this bankruptcy while also discussing the impact to child sex abuse survivors.  However, there a

The mental fallout from my abuse was mostly dormant prior to the current lawsuit. It would still torment me in idle moments. Or at night sometimes when I lay in bed trying not to blame myself after so

I would like to not lock the thread but we seem to be in a rut that we need to get out of before any progress can be made. Here are some observations that might help. First, human dignity is the

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1 minute ago, vol_scouter said:

I do not agree with 1 and 3 but do number 2.  

On 1, redacted names. Should have made that clear. You are correct.

On 3, what are you and BSA afraid of? Having an independent, court appointed compliance monitor to ensure BSA in fact enforces YP for a period of say 5 years. This is very common when organizations (such as BSA) have demonstrated systemic and long term problems and there is a concern that the court's directives will NOT be complied with.

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52 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

On 1, redacted names. Should have made that clear. You are correct.

On 3, what are you and BSA afraid of? Having an independent, court appointed compliance monitor to ensure BSA in fact enforces YP for a period of say 5 years. This is very common when organizations (such as BSA) have demonstrated systemic and long term problems and there is a concern that the court's directives will NOT be complied with.

The issue that I have with courts ordering such things is that it is dictatorial in that one does what is directed not matter what has changed.  In the 1970's and 1980's, cities in the south had court ordered busing.  At first, black students were bused to predominantly white schools and white students were bused to predominantly black schools.  The program was exorbitantly expensive.  After some time, black students were being bused to black schools and nearly all white students had left.  There was no longer a purpose in spending the money to bus children from their neighborhoods to elsewhere at great cost and time on buses for the children.  It continued for decades, ending only relatively recently.  It benefitted few if any students not terribly long after beginning.

This is not to debate whether busing was good or bad but to relate how the court continued wasting the children's time on buses and the school systems money.

The court will appoint an attorney who will likely not be a researcher into child abuse and so not qualified to manage such an effort.

If the proposal is to have court reporting and court ordered audits, then that makes sense.  The BSA can provide information that shows progress.  The court could employ researchers to evaluate the data and perform spot checks to assure the accuracy.

We must get volunteers to take youth protection seriously or they should be asked to leave.  Adult females should be encouraged to participate at all levels.  I share your desire for not just the volunteers and professionals at the national council to be more forceful, but at the local council and unit levels.

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8 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

The issue that I have with courts ordering such things is that it is dictatorial in that one does what is directed not matter what has changed. 

That's why I said put a clock on in: 5 years. I've seen some 3 year version as well. I've also seen a flex plan: 2 years, starting from the date the monitor (or the court) determines that BSA has reached compliance.

If BSA behaves itself, starts to take YP seriously, and is able to convince the judge and/or monitor, then they get out from under the compliance monitor.

If BSA insists on maintaining its lacksidasial attitude about YP and the abuse keeps happening, the monitor stays in.

And if that takes years under a "dictator", well, I'm sorry. You don't fix a 100+ year culture of sexual abuse with a "we promised to be good now, honest."

Not after 84,000+ victims.

8 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

The court will appoint an attorney who will likely not be a researcher into child abuse and so not qualified to manage such an effort.

So, there are no lawyers who know anything about child abuse. Huh. Interesting. Absolutely not true, of course. But interesting you think that.

I want the victims compensated first and foremost. It is clear that BSA is going to stall, stall, stall and is about to get a very rude awakening next week when there is (effectively) universal rejection of their sham plan 2.0.

Then, once the victims are compensated, I want to see that it doesn't happen again. Not sexual abuse (this in nor utopia) but BSA's cavalier and blase attitude towards sexual abuse.

If that takes 3-5 years under a court-appointed monitor (you say "dictator", I say "Youth Protection compliance monitor"), so be it at this stage.

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8 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

That's why I said put a clock on in: 5 years. I've seen some 3 year version as well. I've also seen a flex plan: 2 years, starting from the date the monitor (or the court) determines that BSA has reached compliance.

If BSA behaves itself, starts to take YP seriously, and is able to convince the judge and/or monitor, then they get out from under the compliance monitor.

If BSA insists on maintaining its lacksidasial attitude about YP and the abuse keeps happening, the monitor stays in.

And if that takes years under a "dictator", well, I'm sorry. You don't fix a 100+ year culture of sexual abuse with a "we promised to be good now, honest."

Not after 84,000+ victims.

That is more supportable as long as the court appointed monitor is a researcher from the field.

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1 minute ago, vol_scouter said:

That is more supportable as long as the court appointed monitor is a researcher from the field.

And no lawyers know anything about child sexual abuse. Got it.

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2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Unfortunately you are seeing and living the nightmare that many in BSA and the forum consider children sexually abused just the cost of having BSA. A cost the children abused must pay.

I do not see anyone on this forum saying that.  I see people comparing to other organizations to indicate BSA may be safer.  I see comments that if BSA is closed, kids may actually be more at risk.  That is not saying sex abuse is the cost of having BSA ... its the exact opposite.

Now ... are these stat comparisons fair ... likely not.  But I believe the clear intent is to understand how BSA's safety compares to other organizations with a clear goal of ensuring BSA is safer.  

 

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Time for BSA to start taking this seriously or someone is going to do it for them on behalf of and with the authority of a federal court.

I fully expect changes from this bankruptcy.  I believe BSA has been too timid sometimes acting on change (for example, requiring YPT to register).  However, I still see BSA as much more active in this space than GSUSA or sports teams I have been involved with.   Most unit leaders spend time considering YP aspects when planning events.  Every Eagle Scout project I review includes a discussion of safety and YP coverage.  This is drilled into us by the BSA.

So ... I expect changes and some of which are probably a bit overdue (more openness in reporting).  However, I have a hard time saying BSA doesn't take this seriously.

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CynicalScouter, Lawyers have the mistaken belief that they can be an expert in anything.  They are experts in the law - not youth protection, science, medicine, mathematics, engineering, or any other field unless that have advanced training in it.  Just as many of us are looking to attorneys and yourself to translate what is actually occurring.  Not that we are not intelligent enough to understand but that it requires specialized training to be an expert.

Even in the law, attorneys specialize.  A divorce lawyer does not handle a criminal defense or a complicated bankruptcy such as we have been discussing.  If the BSA is to take what is considered a top notch program and make it better, it requires evaluation by an expert in the field just as one would select attorneys.

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1 minute ago, vol_scouter said:

Even in the law, attorneys specialize. 

Yes. And there are no lawyers, anywhere, who work in the area of child sexual abuse. Nope. Not at all. Ok then. Like I said, it is an interesting belief you have there.

 

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37 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Yes. And there are no lawyers, anywhere, who work in the area of child sexual abuse. Nope. Not at all. Ok then. Like I said, it is an interesting belief you have there.

 

So the next time you have a medical problem, go to a medical malpractice attorney for your diagnosis and treatment.  

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22 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

So the next time you have a medical problem, go to a medical malpractice attorney for your diagnosis and treatment.  

The next time I want to know if I am in compliance with a court order, I'll go see a lawyer.

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2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Yes. And there are no lawyers, anywhere, who work in the area of child sexual abuse. Nope. Not at all. Ok then. Like I said, it is an interesting belief you have there.

 

And those attorneys that specialize in medicine will do your neurosurgery by your beliefs.  I will stick with real experts not people trained as attorneys who have an interest in a particular field because they do lawsuits in that field.

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I forget, what's after Storming?

That reminds me. In another thread I asked what people needed for their kids to enjoy scouting. It was yet another attempt to get people to focus on being constructive, and it was ignored.

Anyway, I thought of one more thing that would really help. Leadership. From the very top. Someone that has a vision and can get everyone on the same page. I read about this somewhere. Or maybe it was in a class I took. Something about animals and parking tickets?

It's surprising how difficult it is to find a real leader. 

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37 minutes ago, MattR said:

..

Anyway, I thought of one more thing that would really help. Leadership. From the very top. Someone that has a vision and can get everyone on the same page. I read about this somewhere. Or maybe it was in a class I took. Something about animals and parking tickets?

It's surprising how difficult it is to find a real leader. 

You can rest easy, I'm here.

Now, what's this about giving animals parking tickets. We need to get on top this.

Barry

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I think there has been enough hyperbole, sarcasm and thinly veiled personal attacks recently. Perhaps everyone who has posted in the last 24 hours should take the weekend off.

Enjoy your family, go for a hike. Do something else besides post on this or related threads. 

Perhaps after the weekend folks could return to discuss ideas and not cast aspersions at each other. We can disagree without being disagreeable. 

I will be the first to take my own advice...

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