Jump to content

Chapter 11 announced - Part 3 - BSA's Toggle Plan


Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

That's a different legal argument.

  1. One legal argument is that all HA bases are "core" to the BSA mission.
  2. ANOTHER is that they are currently endebted to other creditors with a superior claim(s) therefore not part of the bankruptcy.

If, for example, Sea Base is 100% paid off, that addresses concern #2 (there are no other claimants with a superior claim to the sexual abuse survivors), but does NOT address #1.

And interestingly, BSA isn't arguing that Summit is a "core" function here. They are saying that NO ONE, not even a federal judge, can look at their financial records.

Seriously? Really? What is BSA hiding?

So far, there has been requests shown in these forums where the attorneys have requested this information but I have not seen a request from the federal judge.  Has she actually requested the information.

As to the debt payments, one was made in the past couple of years leaving a substantial debt.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 1.7k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Forums work well in many ways, but it is probably not the best way to discuss the difficult feelings of this bankruptcy while also discussing the impact to child sex abuse survivors.  However, there a

The mental fallout from my abuse was mostly dormant prior to the current lawsuit. It would still torment me in idle moments. Or at night sometimes when I lay in bed trying not to blame myself after so

I would like to not lock the thread but we seem to be in a rut that we need to get out of before any progress can be made. Here are some observations that might help. First, human dignity is the

Posted Images

Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

but I have not seen a request from the federal judge

The point of the TCC request is to have the financial statements turned over to them and the judge so that the judge can take those records into consideration when ruling on the BSA bankruptcy plan(s).

But BSA is about to spend tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to make sure the judge never, ever sees them.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Edited by CynicalScouter
Link to post
Share on other sites

So the opposing attorneys have requested the documents but not the judge. So the BSA has not defied the request of a federal judge.  Attorneys make requests all of the time for documents and, at times, do not produce them.   That is nothing out of the ordinary. If the judge requests the documents and they are not produced, you will have a valid point.  Before that time, the BSA attorneys have a reason(s) not to do so.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

So the opposing attorneys have requested the documents but not the judge. So the BSA has not defied the request of a federal judge.  Attorneys make requests all of the time for documents and, at times, do not produce them.   That is nothing out of the ordinary. If the judge requests the documents and they are not produced, you will have a valid point.  Before that time, the BSA attorneys have a reason(s) not to do so.  

I don't understand this whatsoever. Chapter 11 is voluntary, regardless the pressure of abuse cases that pushed the BSA to that decision. The BSA is requesting 84,000 CSA victim/survivor claimants to release them from future liability. This is not a hostile takeover or class action. They want a release? Produce the financial documents, especially if they really want to stop the fee bleed they repeatedly bemoan. This is nonsense. Want to demonstrate bad faith and a lack of commitment to "equitably compensate" BSA sexual abuse victims? Keep playing this game. Want to step up, be honorable and negotiate in the open? Produce the blasted paperwork.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Finally, the parties have scheduled three additional days of mediation next week in New York. We can provide you with a further update after that mediation.

I want to pull this out from that law firm letter for one reason. This is wild speculation, so big grain of salt here.

Having the mediation in NY may mean nothing and could just be because it is a major hub and it is NY after all the center of the universe (they think). Whatever.

But there is one aspect that occurred to me: New York wasn't just because of easy access to airports and Junior's Cheesecake.

  1. The lawyer(s) for the Ad Hoc Committee of Local Councils are based in NY.
  2. In terms of number of claims filed in November Greater NY Council was second only to Michigan Crossroads.
  3. The lead attorney for the Ad Hoc Committee of Local Councils is based in NY and a major honcho for the Greater NY Council.
  4. Every indication is that the next (or ongoing) wave of lawsuits against BSA National and councils will be in New York due to its sexual abuse lookback window closing soon (August 14, 2021, after having been extended 1 year due to COVID).

All these 4 items are verifiable facts. Here's the speculation.

  1. The purpose of this meeting is to put the screws to the LCs and tell them to start being more forthcoming with their financials and how much they are willing to pay into a settlement OR
  2. The purpose of this meeting it to put the screws to the TCC/FCR/Coalition and convince them that the LCs really, really are flat broke and have nothing more to give to a settlement other than ~$400 million OR
  3. A combination of the two

 

 

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

So the opposing attorneys have requested the documents but not the judge

Yep. And all the TCC is asking for is for those documents to be turned over.

BSA (and JP Morgan) are saying "Trust us. There's a real legit note payable, and it is really all Summit, and it is really valued at $350 million and there have been no fraud in how it was executed, even though it would be the first promissory note in history with a) no interest and b) no maturity date."

"Trust us."

Nope. Not in a bankruptcy case you don't "trust". No debtor in his/her/their right mind would "trust" that kind of a secret deal.

Trust, but VERIFY.

And BSA's running scared of having ANYONE look at those books.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

They want a release? Produce the financial documents, especially if they really want to stop the fee bleed they repeatedly bemoan.

Right, this is NOT a forced Chapter 11 or forced Chapter 7.

BSA came into this wanted to settle all abuse claims, but now REFUSES to turn over financial records to indicate what their REAL financial status is, and that of their single largest asset, Summit?

"Trust us" doesn't work in a bankruptcy.

"Trust us" doesn't work with 84,000 sexual abuse victims.

There is no way any attorney worth a dime is going to tell their client to "trust" the people who presided over (or covered up, depending how you view it) the sexual abuse of 84,000 people.

"Trust us"? No way.

Edited by CynicalScouter
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't forget that PSZJ Law also has offices in NYC.  This may be a sign, hopefully, that they are hashing out details for a settlement.

BSA knows that they cannot exit bankruptcy successfully without TCC approval.  

TCC knows that BSA can burn up another hundred million + of cash on legal fees ... which will never go to the claimants.  They also likely know National BSA's true financial situation ... more than any of us on this forum.  They likely know that insurance companies, LCs and perhaps COs are the bigger targets.

So, perhaps, the BSA and TCC and sit down and work out a deal.  BSA wants out.  TCC likely has a list of demands.  Negotiate a settlement where both side is not 100% happy but can move on.

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

So, just had a surreal experience and I really, really wish those people in this forum that insist BSA is full of "honorable" men and that the claimants are all frauds/the lawyers are vultures would have the same. Let me explain.

This morning I checked the Omni Court Docket and saw that the clerk had put online 8 letters from sexual abuse victims that were mailed to Judge Silverstein.

I won't link to them but I encourage all of your who are unquestionably defending BSA to read those 8 letters.

They are from young(er) and older.

They are from Eagle Scouts, OA, Cub Scouts.

They are from VICTIMS. Not "vultures". Not frauds. VICTIMS.

They talk about (in no particular order)

  • Depression
  • Mental illness
  • Suicide attempts
  • Drug abuse
  • Alcohol abuse
  • Fear (lived in a small town, couldn't tell anyone)
  • Shame/Made to fell "less than"
  • Relief (that the victim was not alone in being abused)
  • 50-60 years later, still feeling as victimized as the day it happened
  • Lucky (that it only happened once/the victim left BSA before it happened again)
  • Constant or lifelong counseling

And all 8 letters have one thing in common: they all talk about wanting BSA to be held accountable. To pay what it owes, to not get off with a slap on the wrist.

Remember this, the next time you decide that BSA can do no wrong and that Summit or Sea Base or your local camp is worth dragging these men through this again.

 

  • Upvote 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

they all talk about wanting BSA to be held accountable.

You cannot hold an inanimate object accountable for anything. Instead, this bankruptcy and settlement process is expecting the scouts in my troop to pay for a victims fund (either directly through dues or indirectly through the loss of program). My point is that is wrong to fix a wrong with another wrong. All of this while the actual abusers and those that did not deal with them see very little in accountability. 

I can tell you this, my council is taking youth protection more seriously than ever. They are expecting all adult leadership to be fully trained. Short Term Camping standards must be complied with. Etc. There is no perfect solution, but scouter's in my council are taking this seriously.

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Owls_are_cool said:

All of this while the actual abusers and those that did not deal with them see very little in accountability. 

Because most are dead. And where they are alive, yes I've told you before they are being sued in their personal capacity.

And if the scouts in your troop are being forced to pay for BSA executives bad actions and allowing abuse to fester for decades, well, sorry but too bad. Part of being a corporation is that a corporate entity is perpetual (and Congress even mandate BSA have a perpetual existence) which means that the corporate entity today pays.

Besides, I thought you said, clearly and unequivocally, you would leave scouting you or your scouts had to pay for any of these sexual abuse claims.

On 4/22/2021 at 6:13 PM, Owls_are_cool said:

We'll move to another organization or quit scouting.

As I pointed out: you already have. So, shouldn't you have left scouting by now?

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

well, sorry but too bad.

I'll be fighting for the scouts in my troop until the battle is lost. Sadly, I have to battle scouters that are okay with scouts getting the brunt of the "accountability", because they are part of the money stream. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

BSA knows that they cannot exit bankruptcy successfully without TCC approval.  

Do they? Because at various points in this process it looked as if they were planning on somehow convincing the judge to order a cramdown which, as has been pointed out, has NEVER happened in sexual abuse cases before.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Owls_are_cool said:

Sadly, I have to battle scouters that are okay with scouts getting the brunt of the "accountability", because they are part of the money stream. 

I have precisely 0 to do with any "money stream" so I don't know what you are talking about.

And this entire mess wouldn't have happened but for

1) Sexual abusers who

2) Were given free access to scouts with

3) No oversight or supervision by BSA and

4) That BSA KNEW FOR YEARS it had a sexual abuse problem and did not much about.

Oh, and if you want to point fingers, (effectively) NONE of this would resulted in BSA's bankruptcy but for

5) state legislatures reopening the statute of limitations of civil cases involving sexual abuse of minors.

And I am not ok with today's scouts bearing a burden. But given the legal environment (see point #5)  there are three options here:

Option A- The abuse victims that BSA allowed to be abused (or were negligent to use the precise legal term in failing to supervise, train, oversee, and remove the abusers) walk away with nothing. This appears to be the option you favor, however, since that is not an option in many states...

Option B- BSA walks away from the bankruptcy and spends the next decade losing lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit in state courts. It still results in the modern/current BSA having to pay and a decade or more of bad press for BSA.

Option C- Payment is made to the victims now or in the near future and the claims settled.

If you can come up with an Option D, speak up.

Edited by CynicalScouter
  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

There are a different ways of viewing honorability. If a captain goes down with his sinking ship, that is considered honorable behavior. If the ship is sinking though because he steered it straight into an iceberg, it might still be honorable for him to go down with it but he's also responsible for the disaster. That's kind of how I view the BSA Over the decades I think there's been a mix of institutionalized arrogance and incompetence which, while it might have been honorably intended, has resulted in BSA being inexplicably too blind or too slow or too in denial to see or react to certain dangers. Being good people, which I'm sure some of them are, doesn't justify doing a bad job.

 

Edited by yknot
  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...