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Chapter 11 announced - Part 3 - BSA's Toggle Plan


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Forums work well in many ways, but it is probably not the best way to discuss the difficult feelings of this bankruptcy while also discussing the impact to child sex abuse survivors.  However, there a

The mental fallout from my abuse was mostly dormant prior to the current lawsuit. It would still torment me in idle moments. Or at night sometimes when I lay in bed trying not to blame myself after so

I would like to not lock the thread but we seem to be in a rut that we need to get out of before any progress can be made. Here are some observations that might help. First, human dignity is the

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Is it just me or is this dragging on and on?  The next court date not until July 21st?  Good grief, the attorneys are making a fortune by prolonging this.  Surely there can be something more done than having a hearing every 45 days.

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8 minutes ago, Bronco1821 said:

Surely there can be something more done than having a hearing every 45 days.

There was supposed to be a hearing last week but the judge, on the request of BSA and the mediators, dropped it.

There are lots of moving pieces behind the scenes that, with luck, will result in a plan shortly. But yes, the complaint against the judge has been she has let this go on way too long and should have been more aggressive, but she was also being told that mediation was on-going and such.

Edited by CynicalScouter
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13 minutes ago, Bronco1821 said:

Is it just me or is this dragging on and on?  The next court date not until July 21st?  Good grief, the attorneys are making a fortune by prolonging this.  Surely there can be something more done than having a hearing every 45 days.

Definitely not just you. I'm twisting in the wind and heat over here. Finally drafting my letter to the judge and touch on what this horrible attenuation is doing to me and other survivors. Recounting the abuse is not so much my thing. I prefer to talk about impacts. I'm pretty sure she doesn't get the psychological explosion the filing alone was to many of us, let alone the Proof of Claim process, the claims aggregating and mining, the fee drain, droning he said/she said in the hearings, and her consistent failure to rule on motions and resulting delay. My daily prayer (I'm short on hope) is that some happy news will drop from the mediation limbo any day.

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6 minutes ago, jr56 said:

Unfortunately, I guess there is no financial incentive to settle this any time soon. 

On the contrary: BSA has said it is going to have no cash flow as of August. There is a huge financial incentive for BSA to make a deal now/soon.

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6 minutes ago, jr56 said:

Unfortunately, I guess there is no financial incentive to settle this any time soon. 

If they're being truthful about August as the trigger point for "headlong into poverty," BSA certainly does. Insurers? Definitely not. Survivors with substantial claims and/or those not wanting an early exit? We can and will be as patient as necessary.  

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21 hours ago, yknot said:

4-H is also a 100 plus year old legacy youth organization and no such files exist there. 

Yep.  No such files exist there.  They did not track occurrences.  Either the larger organization was more loose or the nature of the program had weak boundaries with inside / outside the program.  

4-H had less occurrences.   I don't buy it.  4-H has lots of private opportunities and lots of youth-adult interaction.  What I do buy is either the incidents took a slightly different form that people don't interpret as so ugly or the program has suck lose boundaries that people don't strictly interpret it as a 4-H issue.

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35 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

If they're being truthful about August as the trigger point for "headlong into poverty," BSA certainly does. Insurers? Definitely not. Survivors with substantial claims and/or those not wanting an early exit? We can and will be as patient as necessary.  

Oh of course, I am willing to wait for a long time if it means a fair settlement and some changes at BSA but it just seems like things move so slowly.  

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2 minutes ago, Bronco1821 said:

I am willing to wait for a long time if it means a fair settlement and some changes at BSA but it just seems like things move so slowly.  

Same. I was naive in not at all expecting this dirge and shamble. 

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36 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

4-H had less occurrences.   I don't buy it.  4-H has lots of private opportunities and lots of youth-adult interaction.  What I do buy is either the incidents took a slightly different form that people don't interpret as so ugly or the program has suck lose boundaries that people don't strictly interpret it as a 4-H issue.

I'll give my favorite caveat right upfront: I'm asking, not poking.

Are you a 4-Her? As I've said before, I'm not but experienced it through my sister for about six years. We are very close, as I am with her daughter. That's not first hand, but I was at events, their farm, talked with my niece a great deal...

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1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

she was also being told that mediation was on-going and such.

To append, she was also told BSA was excluding mediation parties in favor of others. So much so that the TCC was told to go home from one of them, not contacted in several cases while "mediation was progressing nicely" and Chubb was not included at all in others or for extended periods. All of that should have gotten her off her duff, in my humble view. 

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59 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Yep.  No such files exist there.  They did not track occurrences.  Either the larger organization was more loose or the nature of the program had weak boundaries with inside / outside the program.  

4-H had less occurrences.   I don't buy it.  4-H has lots of private opportunities and lots of youth-adult interaction.  What I do buy is either the incidents took a slightly different form that people don't interpret as so ugly or the program has suck lose boundaries that people don't strictly interpret it as a 4-H issue.

That's why I said Google yourself for headlines and cases and see what you think. I find very few. Google Scout Leader Sex Abuse and 4H Leader Sex Abuse and see what pops up once you get past the recent mass filing. If cases were as rampant in 4H as in scouting, wouldn't someone somewhere have been filing more cases than the handful that come up? It also was and is a different environment. Before two deep, the whole advancement process in scouting with scoutmaster conferences, sign offs, skills demonstration, etc. created a lot of opportunities for a predator to cut a kid from the herd. In 4H, it's pretty much all public. You don't do anything with an adult leader, you exhibit at a fair, you present to a group, etc. There were also a lot more moms involved in 4H as both leaders and chaperones. In my opinion, women have traditionally been more vigilant about who is doing what with kids and keeping track of where they are, although I think many more men have started adopting those strategies as well. Traditionally, a lot of the scouting program has tried to minimize 'mom hovering' especially at the troop level, but it seems there may have been a downside to that. There is no other youth organization that does that except for maybe some of the marquee sports cultures at the older ages.

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10 minutes ago, yknot said:

It also was and is a different environment. Before two deep, the whole advancement process in scouting with scoutmaster conferences, sign offs, skills demonstration, etc. created a lot of opportunities for a predator to cut a kid from the herd. In 4H, it's pretty much all public. You don't do anything with an adult leader, you exhibit at a fair, you present to a group, etc. There were also a lot more moms involved in 4H as both leaders and chaperones. In my opinion, women have traditionally been more vigilant about who is doing what with kids and keeping track of where they are, although I think many more men have started adopting those strategies as well. Traditionally, a lot of the scouting program has tried to minimize 'mom hovering' especially at the troop level, but it seems there may have been a downside to that. There is no other youth organization that does that except for maybe some of the marquee sports cultures at the older ages.

This mirrors my secondhand 4-H experience. No sleeping in the woods apart from parents. Most all activities in public and with groups of kids and parents. If I were to simplify and use the same activity, camping, this is how I would compare Scouting and 4-H:

* Scouting (pre-serious/recent YPT) --> Men and boys hiking, swimming and tent camping in the woods for weekends and even weeks.  

* 4-H --> Overnight camping in a family's backyard with a fire pit and s'mores.   

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2 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

This mirrors my secondhand 4-H experience. No sleeping in the woods apart from parents. Most all activities in public and with groups of kids and parents. If I were to simplify and use the same activity, camping, this is how I would compare Scouting and 4-H:

* Scouting (pre-serious/recent YPT) --> Men and boys hiking, swimming and tent camping in the woods for weekends and even weeks.  

* 4-H --> Overnight camping in a family's backyard with a fire pit and s'mores.   

4H members can also do high adventure and more outdoors oriented projects depending on the state and county but the process is very different and there is more parent involvement. 4H offers almost everything, so it is a fine slice of the membership pie but then again 4H enrolls many, many more kids than scouting. I think the membership now is over 6 million. Many 4H clubs, regardless of what subject, still camp as part of the experience and also attend 4H camp. When I was young, we camped with an adult leader, but it was generally a group bunkhouse at a camp. You were never really alone with an adult.  

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