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Chapter 11 announced - Part 2 (after the big slow)


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45 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I agree as far as not allowing such things, but not calling it abuse.

Good enough.  I know things have changed.  I'm not advocating that we go back to the past.  I just don't like hearing my generation and past generations criticized in that way.

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I'll do my best to explain what I have seen in this thread, so hopefully I don't misconstrue the message.  The one thing I would say about @ThenNow is that it does seem that he cares about the BSA and

You've nailed the attitude that I think is so counterproductive to ever resolving youth protection issues in scouting. There are too many who want to rationalize away the situation because they someho

Historically, the BSA added people to the IVF, at least some times, based on just a report that they were talking about starting a Scout unit, not only if they had already been registered. And it

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

After what is happening to the BSA because of their internal database, I do not think any lawyer for a youth organization in their right mind would say this is a good idea. It opens them up to lawsuits.

the current lawsuits and bankruptcy have nothing to do with BSA's internal database.  The suits are based on the fact that a lot of abuse occurred and changes in the law have made it possible for men who probably would not have been able to articulate what happened to them before are being given another shot at it.  The existence or non existence of the IV files is irrelevant.  The 84,000 claimants aren't staking their claims to a list that was first published almost ten years ago now.

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46 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

the current lawsuits and bankruptcy have nothing to do with BSA's internal database.  The suits are based on the fact that a lot of abuse occurred and changes in the law have made it possible for men who probably would not have been able to articulate what happened to them before are being given another shot at it.  The existence or non existence of the IV files is irrelevant.  The 84,000 claimants aren't staking their claims to a list that was first published almost ten years ago now.

Then why is the BSA responsible for the abuse if they had an internal database, similar to the recommended CDC database, that they checked volunteers against to prevent known and/or suspected abusers from joining?

 Kosnoff et al have used the IVF to say that the BSA knows there is an abuse problem and did nothing to prevent it. They used the IVF to find victims to start suing the BSA.

 

The IVF, a tool to prevent abuse before a time of mandatory reporting, is now being used to kill the BSA.

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19 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Then why is the BSA responsible for the abuse if they had an internal database, similar to the recommended CDC database, that they checked volunteers against to prevent known and/or suspected abusers from joining?

 Kosnoff et al have used the IVF to say that the BSA knows there is an abuse problem and did nothing to prevent it. They used the IVF to find victims to start suing the BSA.

 

The IVF, a tool to prevent abuse before a time of mandatory reporting, is now being used to kill the BSA.

I think we've got to stop focusing on one thing. The IV files are just one symptom of a dysfunctional organization. There are a dozen things going wrong. 

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6 hours ago, yknot said:

BSA should be expected to have the gold standard YP program because it is the only youth organization that at least monthly has unrelated adults take unrelated kids off to remote locations without cameras or any other kind of public supervision for lengthy, overnight trips

That is a mix of truth.  When you add "monthly", then yes.  Remove monthly and keep un-related adults, remote locations, without cameras, without public supervision, overnights and now BSA is common with most youth serving organizations.  Each organization has it's risk in different areas.  Camps - Almost every youth servicing organization encourages one or more camps per year (YMCA, 4-H, girl camps, etc).  Private times - most organizations have similar quantities of opportunities.  

 

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7 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

But this is 100% about BSA.  Volunteers under the BSA program took advantage of youth in horrible deviant ways.  Those volunteers failed and the youth paid the price.  There is do doubt there is sexual abuse in all of our society, but that doesnt excuse the BSA in this particular matter.  For now this is about the claims against BSA.

And society has someone to blame for what is pretty much a society wide issue.  It's about blame and labeling a group while pretending everyone else is better.  Shame.  It's a modern day bigotry and hatred.  

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4 hours ago, fred8033 said:

society has someone to blame for what is pretty much a society wide issue.  It's about blame and labeling a group while pretending everyone else is better.  Shame.  It's a modern day bigotry and hatred.  

I think hovering at 30,000 feet is fine to create distance and craft a theoretical, cultural narrative. There, it's reasonable to perceive this is a witch hunt because no other witches have kept a list of those on whom they've cast spells and BSA has crafted its own trap. It might be a worthy exercise for a separate moment. That macro level may be a good mental and emotional buffer, but this is about one boy being abused by an adult man who was/is a representative of the Boy Scouts of America. Get too much distance from that reality and this becomes a much easier matter to confront, couched in the comforting justification that everyone is picking on the BSA that foolishly, though with good intentions, made itself a target for unscrupulous attorneys and a litigious society run amok.

This is about the BSA and their bankruptcy - moral and legal - for allowing tens and tens of thousands of boys to be abused 100's of thousands of times. Society didn't sexually abuse me when I was 10. My Scoutmaster did. My choir director, track coach, Key Club advisor, football trainer, CCD teacher, guidance counselor, band instructor or any other adult who lead me while I was a boy didn't abuse me for 6 years. My Scoutmaster did. He was sanctioned by a Local Council and the Unit was "hosted" by a church and school. They were the designated oversight, not my high school, municipal or civic organization, or the parent entity of any of the national organization I participated in. It was on the watch of BSA local, regional and national. It was on the watch of our church and school, the Chartering Organization, local and regional, but not national because it's the Catholic church and they are insulated.

In this moment, we are not in the realm of cultural or societal theory. It's all well and good, but not currently relevant. The IVF were unknown to me in 2003 when I started pursuing my SM with law enforcement. I didn't need it to know what happened, who did it or who was in oversight while it was allowed to continue.

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5 hours ago, ThenNow said:

I think hovering at 30,000 feet is fine to create distance and craft a theoretical, cultural narrative. There, it's reasonable to perceive this is a witch hunt because no other witches have kept a list of those on whom they've cast spells and BSA has crafted its own trap. It might be a worthy exercise for a separate moment. That macro level may be a good mental and emotional buffer, but this is about one boy being abused by an adult man who was/is a representative of the Boy Scouts of America. Get too much distance from that reality and this becomes a much easier matter to confront, couched in the comforting justification that everyone is picking on the BSA that foolishly, though with good intentions, made itself a target for unscrupulous attorneys and a litigious society run amok.

This is about the BSA and their bankruptcy - moral and legal - for allowing tens and tens of thousands of boys to be abused 100's of thousands of times. Society didn't sexually abuse me when I was 10. My Scoutmaster did. My choir director, track coach, Key Club advisor, football trainer, CCD teacher, guidance counselor, band instructor or any other adult who lead me while I was a boy didn't abuse me for 6 years. My Scoutmaster did. He was sanctioned by a Local Council and the Unit was "hosted" by a church and school. They were the designated oversight, not my high school, municipal or civic organization, or the parent entity of any of the national organization I participated in. It was on the watch of BSA local, regional and national. It was on the watch of our church and school, the Chartering Organization, local and regional, but not national because it's the Catholic church and they are insulated.

In this moment, we are not in the realm of cultural or societal theory. It's all well and good, but not currently relevant. The IVF were unknown to me in 2003 when I started pursuing my SM with law enforcement. I didn't need it to know what happened, who did it or who was in oversight while it was allowed to continue.

I'm sorry for your pain, I really am. But, I don't know why you are even here. I've talked to a lot of people about this subject and accepting for a couple of angry posters on this forum, nobody believes the BSA is haven for abused boys or predators. Sure, scouts were abused by bad people and laws were broken. The historical reputation of the scouting program holds it's integrity.  

I hope you get what is coming to you, but I also hope you get the help for getting a healthy mind and back to a normal life because telling off BSA members on a BSA forum is not going to do it. The BSA and it's members are not your problem or enemy.  

As I said in other discussions, all the bad in the history of Boy Scouting isn't even a micro blip when compared to all the good the program has brought. You and a couple others here may get some satisfaction with the down fall of the BSA, but history shows that future humanity looses out the most.

Barry 

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29 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I'm sorry for your pain, I really am. But, I don't know why you are even here. I've talked to a lot of people about this subject and accepting for a couple of angry posters on this forum, nobody believes the BSA is haven for abused boys or predators. Sure, scouts were abused by bad people and laws were broken. The historical reputation of the scouting program holds it's integrity.  

I hope you get what is coming to you, but I also hope you get the help for getting a healthy mind and back to a normal life because telling off BSA members on a BSA forum is not going to do it. The BSA and it's members are not your problem or enemy.  

As I said in other discussions, all the bad in the history of Boy Scouting isn't even a micro blip when compared to all the good the program has brought. You and a couple others here may get some satisfaction with the down fall of the BSA, but history shows that future humanity looses out the most.

Barry 

Thanks. Sincerely.

I'm not sure you've read all my post or all from others, but regardless my experience or pain or what is "due" me, others have "told off the BSA" in far harsher terms then I. Truth. And not just a couple. Not by far. Also, you don't know my involvement in Scouting. You're assuming and didn't ask. 

I've been told on the public forum and in numerous DM's how others appreciate my contribution and the perspective I bring, absent which many have no idea what you're actually talking about. Real. Life. Trauma. Real. Life. Devastation. Do I get upset at times? Of course I do. I don't believe there are many claimant survivors here and only those who share the experience - both the abuse and the process of dealing with this bankruptcy we did not bring upon ourselves - can fully understand what causes some of the visceral reactions. It is extremely difficult to stand tall and "take it" when someone lashes out at me (us). Have I kept my mouth shut and bit my tongue other times? Yes. Many. Have I poured my heart out to help those who will listen understand what is at stake for even one other child under your care, risking reactions like yours? I have and will, if allowed.

PS - You may be "sorry," but you can't truly be if you're unwilling to listen and understand. I find these types of "apologies" to be difficult to receive. "I'm sorry, I truly am," but please shut up and go away. Well, ok. If I misunderstand, I'm open to be disabused...

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18 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

all the bad in the history of Boy Scouting isn't even a micro blip when compared to all the good the program has brought. You and a couple others here may get some satisfaction with the down fall of the BSA, but history shows that future humanity looses out the most.

"Not even a micro blip." Good grief. I cannot even believe this was said in this way. Again, if you read my posts, you would find you are mistaking me for someone else. Entirely. The more of these blasts I take, however, the less interested I become in lending any perspective or reality to help Scouting improve. For now, I'll persist.

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12 minutes ago, yknot said:

 

You've nailed the attitude that I think is so counterproductive to ever resolving youth protection issues in scouting. There are too many who want to rationalize away the situation because they somehow believe scouting is somehow the victim or that the good that it does is worth the cost of the damage. 

It's just balance to the few here marketing the program as unsafe against predators. 

Barry

3 minutes ago, David CO said:

Anyone who completed the Boy Scout program from 11 to 17 has a valid right to express his opinions on scouting.  

I appreciate that, thanks.

Barry

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41 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

It's just balance to the few here marketing the program as unsafe against predators. 

That's fine.  It's always good to have a balancing opinion.  

I don't agree with either position.  I don't think the program is either safe or unsafe.  It's the kids who are either safe or unsafe.  Some kids enter the program with certain vulnerabilities.  Others don't.  The only way to make BSA completely safe would be to identify the vulnerable kids and exclude them from the program.  I don't think anyone seriously intends to do that.

BSA is in trouble because it deliberately markets its program to vulnerable kids, and then does little to identify their vulnerabilities or protect them from abuse.  We need to do better at screening these kids as they come in.  It's not enough to screen the adults.  We also need to screen the kids.

If the predators can easily identify the vulnerable kids, we should be able to do it too.

 

.

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