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Chapter 11 announced - Part 2 (after the big slow)


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1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Perhaps she can remove the exclusivity clause and allow the TCC to offer a plan.

I hope she does. It seems to me it's a matter of negotiating with people who will not "give" unless forced. Like the chart and the TCC's extensive analysis of claims, they have financial information and insurance assets assessments that can put things into the public eye and start leveraging people to act. When those two documents I mentioned went public, even just here, the reaction was huge. I want to see what the TCC has in open court and then see how the BSA, LCs, insurers and all other non-party parties can hide their heads in the sand.

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I'll do my best to explain what I have seen in this thread, so hopefully I don't misconstrue the message.  The one thing I would say about @ThenNow is that it does seem that he cares about the BSA and

You've nailed the attitude that I think is so counterproductive to ever resolving youth protection issues in scouting. There are too many who want to rationalize away the situation because they someho

I think you've jumped in the deep end of victim blaming and then failed to tread water. Blaming a child victim of sexual molestation or rape and saying the antidote is to keep them out of the program

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34 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

and then see how the BSA, LCs, insurers and all other non-party parties can hide their heads in the sand.

It's hard to hide your head in the sand and cover your butt at the same time.  

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3 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

The Debtor can still ask for a vote on the Plan?  

I think the judge has to rule on that; however, her last hearing she said the plan wasn't ready.  Insurance companies just filed paperwork to delay the April 29 hearing ... it appears they are stating there must be at least 28 days for review,  before a plan can be approved for a vote.  Given the plan is not ready (per the judge) even now, there is no way April 29 hearing can proceed as previously stated. 

Note that even though the insurance companies & TCC are both stating the plan is garbage, my guess is that is likely all they agree on.

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1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:
  • Two major religious institutions have been part of the mediations, but have not offered anything as part of the mediation.

 

I'm starting to get really worried about the Methodist church. Far as I know, they don't have a lot of property like the Catholic church. 

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10 minutes ago, yknot said:

I'm starting to get really worried about the Methodist church. Far as I know, they don't have a lot of property like the Catholic church. 

  • METHODIST CHURCH 3,443
  • BAPTIST CHURCH 2,774
  • CATHOLIC CHURCH 2,280
  • LATTER‐DAY SAINTS 2,236
  • PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH 1,470
  • LUTHERAN CHURCH 1,198
  • EPISCOPAL CHURCH 503

These are the top 5 COs identified by # of claims.  Now, I expect these numbers to grow and change a bit as many scouts probably do not even know the CO for their unit.  As lawyers are able to obtain roster data from LCs, I expect CO impacts to clarify more.  Note that there are individual churches listed throughout the CO list.

 

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1 minute ago, Eagle1993 said:
  • METHODIST CHURCH 3,443
  • BAPTIST CHURCH 2,774
  • CATHOLIC CHURCH 2,280
  • LATTER‐DAY SAINTS 2,236
  • PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH 1,470
  • LUTHERAN CHURCH 1,198
  • EPISCOPAL CHURCH 503

These are the top 5 COs identified by # of claims.  Now, I expect these numbers to grow and change a bit as many scouts probably do not even know the CO for their unit.  As lawyers are able to obtain roster data from LCs, I expect CO impacts to clarify more.  Note that there are individual churches listed throughout the CO list.

 

I'm just thinking of all the small, rural UMC churches in our area who hosted units. Crumbling historic buildings and cemeteries, with small, dwindling congregations of maybe 10 to 15 elderly folks. A $10K ask would put them under. I'm sure it would be handled at a higher level, but then a lot of these congregations would likely be closed and consolidated. The only saleable asset they have would be a parsonage and once you sell that you can't really function. 

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22 hours ago, DavidLeeLambert said:

Speaking of 4H, I was looking at the TCC summary of abuse claims again and I noticed that there are three claims that list the chartered organization as "4H Club". Page 16 of 328 (page 39 of the PDF), about halfway down.

Also 402 for "YMCA", 167 for "Boys and Girls Club" , 89 for "Boy Scouts of America", 9 for "Police Athletic League", 5 for "United Way", 5 for "Red Cross".

(I once invited a family to attend Cub Scout meetings, but the parent was reluctant because they had a standing commitment to attend Boys and Girls Club daily earlier in the day and transportation would have been difficult from one place to the other. They did attend exactly one pack activity, a fire-station visit. The parent passed away only a month or so later, from an accident while attempting repair of an automobile.)

And one at the West Texas Boys Ranch (Guardian exposé)...

"Also 402 for "YMCA", 167 for "Boys and Girls Club" , 89 for "Boy Scouts of America", 9 for "Police Athletic League", 5 for "United Way", 5 for "Red Cross".   So, it appears that based on this both the Y and the Boys and Girls clubs in theory should be on the hook too?  I do not understand if these details are accurate why we are not seeing something related to the other groups.  I do not want them damaged either, but why should BSA take the full impact?

 

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18 minutes ago, skeptic said:

"Also 402 for "YMCA", 167 for "Boys and Girls Club" , 89 for "Boy Scouts of America", 9 for "Police Athletic League", 5 for "United Way", 5 for "Red Cross".   So, it appears that based on this both the Y and the Boys and Girls clubs in theory should be on the hook too?  I do not understand if these details are accurate why we are not seeing something related to the other groups.  I do not want them damaged either, but why should BSA take the full impact?

 

Because we're not seeing headlines that 83,000 claims have been filed against YMCA or B&GC. It's actually more damning of BSA if claims occur in those organizations when they sponsor a BSA program. Consider that YMCA oversees 9 million youth and B&GCs 4 million youth annually compared to BSA. 

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36 minutes ago, skeptic said:

I do not want them damaged either, but why should BSA take the full impact?

I would imagine that CO's all over the country will be arguing that BSA kept them in the dark.  It is not only a good argument, it also has the advantage of being the truth.

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I think going after the CO's is a bad move.  Public opinion is going to sour quickly when Great Aunt Martha's congregation gets sued for something that happened fifty or sixty years ago.

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34 minutes ago, SilverPalm said:

 

I think going after the CO's is a bad move.  Public opinion is going to sour quickly when Great Aunt Martha's congregation gets sued for something that happened fifty or sixty years ago.

 

Remember, insurance policies are assets. Whatever happens and whomever is “gone after,” 84,000 claims are on the BSA’s front porch. That will be the focus of public sentiment and perception, regardless.

Also, I don’t think it’s been mentioned, but the TCC said something during the town hall that must not be missed. Namely, in all the settlement demands they have made on each of the entities/organizations, none of them were aimed to extinguish. In all cases, the demands left them sufficient resources to continue their mission, whatever it is.

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44 minutes ago, SilverPalm said:

I think going after the CO's is a bad move.  Public opinion is going to sour quickly when Great Aunt Martha's congregation gets sued for something that happened fifty or sixty years ago.

Public opinion regarding the Catholic Church being sued for past abuse has resulted in a lot of outrage --- towards the church.  That has been the primary driver behind the changes in SOL laws that brought us where we are today.

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3 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

Public opinion regarding the Catholic Church being sued for past abuse has resulted in a lot of outrage --- towards the church.  That has been the primary driver behind the changes in SOL laws that brought us where we are today.

Precisely. 

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1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

Remember, insurance policies are assets. Whatever happens and whomever is “gone after,” 84,000 claims are on the BSA’s front porch. That will be the focus of public sentiment and perception, regardless.

Also, I don’t think it’s been mentioned, but the TCC said something during the town hall that must not be missed. Namely, in all the settlement demands they have made on each of the entities/organizations, none of them were aimed to extinguish. In all cases, the demands left them sufficient resources to continue their mission, whatever it is.

This made me think of the ongoing case with the Archdiocese of Santa Fe: News Article

"Levi Monagle, an Albuquerque-based attorney who represents dozens of the victims, said he couldn't comment on the total value of the archdiocese's assets.

A settlement will be complicated, he said, "but I have every belief that we are in a position to achieve one if all the parties continue to put in the necessary blood, sweat, and tears."

"The survivors in this bankruptcy have been tremendously patient thus far — they are warriors in every sense. If they can hold out a little longer, keep fighting a little longer, then we can get this settlement done — and on very good terms," Monagle wrote in an email."

The BSA's and the local council's shouldn't necessarily roll over, sell everything and play dead. But even to me, it seems like the BSA is either intentionally dragging it's feet in this case, or it's so incompetent it cannot get it's various constituent pieces to cooperate. I'm not sure which is worse. 


 

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