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On 7/13/2021 at 11:04 AM, fred8033 said:

With all this movement, it will be interesting to see if sales are contingent on the larger agreement being accepted?  I suspect some of the sales would still happen without the settlement, but I'm sure some would not happen.

It's hard to coordinate such decisions when done by so many individual groups.  

The devil is in the details. A premature sale without the right to cancel the sale may trigger its own adverse ramifications.

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My opinion… councils don’t care.  Mine seems more than happy to be considering dumping their remaining two camps.  They said… go to State Parks.  Camps are seen as a liability to some councils.  Counc

Part of the problem, too, is that we are trying to create these country-club type experiences for people.  Swimming pools, air conditioning, hot showers and flush toilets, climbing towers, ATV program

Really? You're welcome to weed in my backyard any time. I have a great crop of bind weed and some nice thistle. Oh, and lots of mint.

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On 7/13/2021 at 11:04 AM, fred8033 said:

With all this movement, it will be interesting to see if sales are contingent on the larger agreement being accepted?  I suspect some of the sales would still happen without the settlement, but I'm sure some would not happen.

It's hard to coordinate such decisions when done by so many individual groups.  

My opinion… councils don’t care.  Mine seems more than happy to be considering dumping their remaining two camps.  They said… go to State Parks.  Camps are seen as a liability to some councils.  Councils who care will find a way to fund the settlement without selling key properties.  The rest are jumping at the chance to maintain salary and  their office space.  My opinion is likely shaped by a recent update from my council … as you may tell I’m a bit bitter right now.  

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19 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

...

The decisions have already been made; the votes were required by July 9. If you haven't heard from your council it is because they don't want you to know at this point.

Many councils have stepped up and made announcements. Many however have not.

While (arguably) NDAs prohibit councils from announcing specific numbers they have to pay for settlement, there's nothing that prohibits announcing camp sales.

I wonder how many councils agreed and for those that did will they be able to deliver payment.

What if some councils did not agree, enough in number that a shortfall of plan's $300 million contribution occurs?  It would seem this needs to be known before ballots go to creditors.

My $0.02,

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Our council had a Zoom call last night.  I learned that our camps lose $400 million annually.  The council was already considering selling camps.

We did not get our council's obligation numbers, those will come out later after court papers are made public.

It sounded like from the # of councils in America and the total dollar amount, an average amount per council would be $2 million.  But that is not the exact number.

I felt that the people making the presentation were all very professional and they are putting in a good effort to figure things out.  Since we have no numbers and there are no decisons about what they are leaning toward, there isn't much to talk about.

They did say that everything will be done by the end of the year. I am concerned about a rushed (and low dollar) sale if things are moving that fast.  Then they said that the courts are moving slow, so maybe things will take longer.

We have two very nice camps and I hope we do not lose both of them.  I hope that at least one is preserved if only for the sake of land conservation. 

Praying for everyone who is going through this and that with God's help we successfully achieve the goals set out. 

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4 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Our council had a Zoom call last night.  I learned that our camps lose $400 million annually.

That's a lot of money for a single council. Did you mean all BSA camps?

5 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

It sounded like from the # of councils in America and the total dollar amount, an average amount per council would be $2 million.  But that is not the exact number.

Yeah, $500 million / 250 = $2 million, but of course not all councils are the same or have the same number of claims or assets. Grand Canyon Council is already at $7 million. There are some councils that don't even have $500,000 in total net assets, much less $2 million. It is going to vary.

6 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

We did not get our council's obligation numbers, those will come out later after court papers are made public.

Yep. For those people wanting to get more numbers I was hopeful that councils would start to release them this week. Grand Canyon Council seems to be the only one that has done so.

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1 minute ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Sorry, $400,000 

$400,000 makes more sense and isn't a shock. There are a lot of camps that simply are money losers for councils these days with fewer scouts, etc. Someone else pointed out that the only silver lining here may be that there are camps that should have been closed to save council resources that will now be forced to.

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I thought that, for having very little concrete information to share, it was a good and informative call.  

The council mentioned that their team visited three other Scout camps in our area, not too far away, operated by other councils that may be good resources that can be shared.  I am of course concerned that these camps may be lost as well, but our council has communitated with the other councils and those camps may be in a more stable position to keep operating.  I am only familiar with one of the three camps mentioned. 

Our Troop is going to Camp Long Lake (Potawatomi Council) this summer and i have heard very good things about their camp and program.

The two other camps mentioned were Sol R Crown (owned by Northeast Illinois Council)  and Ro Kilio (owned by Bay Lakes Council).  

I did not write this down but the council mentioned that there are currently (I think) 28 scout camps located in Wisconsin and that two will not be available going forward, so that makes 26.  

My comment;  who knows how many more will be sold as we go through this.

Our council shared that Camp Freeland Leslie (Three Fires Council) and Camp Indian Trails (Glacier's Edge Council) are both becoming unavailable. 

Article about Indian Trails sale:
https://www.gazettextra.com/news/local/camp-indian-trails-will-be-sold-as-result-of-abuse-lawsuit/article_df4e3eb6-cabc-5b87-b989-33826089967b.html

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4 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

$400,000 makes more sense and isn't a shock. There are a lot of camps that simply are money losers for councils these days with fewer scouts, etc. Someone else pointed out that the only silver lining here may be that there are camps that should have been closed to save council resources that will now be forced to.

I think this is my council as well.  The $400,000 includes depreciation which I expect is the major cost.  I'd like to see more details on what is being included in depreciation.   What I found interesting, is that they don't talk about the council office losing money (in terms of depreciation).   They made all sorts of excuses why they didn't want to sell their office ... but only negatives about the camps.  

While I thought our council was open (they admitted they would have looked at selling camps regardless of bankruptcy), I don't believe they had good answers on how to support programming with no camps.   How will they put on camporees?  Shooting sports? They didn't have any answer on OA (other than stating call outs can happen elsewhere ... but that isn't really an answer).  They are pointing to other camps, but they are farther away.   Perhaps that will work for Scouts BSA Troops, but I think this will impact our Cub Packs who use the local camps.  The council will have to really work hard to make it easy for Packs to find ways/locations to camp and cabin camp if they want to build the numbers back up.  

Honestly, the entire meeting was demotivating for me.  If they only see negatives about owning camps, perhaps I am in the wrong organization.

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4 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I did not write this down but the council mentioned that there are currently (I think) 28 scout camps located in Wisconsin and that two will not be available going forward, so that makes 26.  

 

There are 18 camps in Wisconsin, going down to 16 pending more announcements (14 if we sell our 2).  

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5 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Our council shared that Camp Freeland Leslie (Three Fires Council) and Camp Indian Trails (Glacier's Edge Council) are both becoming unavailable. 

My Troop went to CFL as it was a Patrol Cooking camp (and well run).  We booked Bear Paw for next year. 

CFL has 1,140 attendees this summer (including adults).  Those ~1.1K of scouts and adults will now start looking at booking other camps in the area.  If this is the only summer camp sold in the area, it probably won't be a major issues.  If other summer camps sell, book early.

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2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

There are 18 camps in Wisconsin, going down to 16 pending more announcements (14 if we sell our 2).  

Thanks for that detail.  :)
Yes we must be in the same council and I also thought that the attachment to the service center building was too strong.  It's not a great building. It's not used all that much.  The scouting heritage museum, could be packed up and not many would care that much, or it could be relocated to camp.  I did not buy that it would cost a lot of money to relocate the scout shop either.  Of course it would be an expense, but let's prioritize -- a CAMP vs. a scout shop!  

 

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I do not know if it was here or elsewhere, but I heard that each council is being asked for about 75% of their unrestricted assets to cover claims. I know Grand Canyon was approx. 73%.

And do not be surprised is restricted and limitation camps go as well. All 4 of the camps in my council are either restricted or has limitations on them. But we are told that 2 will be going. Considering they are advertising the main camp for weddings and special events, we know it is not that one. My feeling is that the most used camp, when it is not shut down, will be reverting back to the family trust that gave it to us.. Considering the family has been developing the surrounding area with McMansions, I am do not see the camp being continued as a campground.

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6 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I do not know if it was here or elsewhere, but I heard that each council is being asked for about 75% of their unrestricted assets to cover claims. I know Grand Canyon was approx. 73%.

And do not be surprised is restricted and limitation camps go as well. All 4 of the camps in my council are either restricted or has limitations on them. But we are told that 2 will be going. Considering they are advertising the main camp for weddings and special events, we know it is not that one. My feeling is that the most used camp, when it is not shut down, will be reverting back to the family trust that gave it to us.. Considering the family has been developing the surrounding area with McMansions, I am do not see the camp being continued as a campground.

I think it depends by state.  Total NET unrestricted assets for all councils combined is $1.5B and they are "only" being asked for $500M +$100M for pension diversion.  So, at this point on average, they are being asked for 1/3 of their net unrestricted assets.

Both of our camps were listed as restricted but are being considered for sale.  So ... that restriction must be pretty loose.  We would end up with 0 camps.

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8 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Let the record reflect that I have been to Philmont.

That, as a crew leader scout, as a Philmont Ranger for 3 years, and senior Philmont Ranch staff for one year, 4 treks as an adult thereafter with scouts, and one Autumn Adventure. I was the senior youth in the Ranger staff in the 1970's, subordinate to two seniors and responsible for 119 Rangers.

I have walked about 2/3rds of Philmont's trails.  (A Ranger does not "hike" as that evokes "sweat" and Rangers do not sweat.)

I completed an event that made me a Philmont legend.

And the thought of Philmont fills my soul every day.

I wear a Philmont belt every day.

I am the WRONG person to whom to suggest that Philmont be sold.

Yet, so I recommend.

The fact remains that Philmont serves about 1 or 2 percent of all of the scouts in the program, and the local camps, perhaps to soon to be lost, serve 50% to 70% of scouts.]

So, were National REALLY protecting the children served by the program, local camps would be preserved, at the expense of national camps.

So, charge me not with disinterest in the fate of Philmont.

I have a framed map of Philmont in my home office and at my work office.

 

 

@SiouxRanger, it isn't about the Scouts, or the mission, it is about the organization surviving at the expense of those, and to keep the money flowing for the people who run it.  Maybe the thinking is, if we have to close camps, the attendance at the "high adventure" bases will increase.  How much does it cost to go to Philmont, Sea Base, etc.??  Aren't they going to tack on a $150 payment to the compensation fund per HA attendee?  You think BSA will eat that? Nope...expect fees to go up by at least $150 per head.

I tend not to think the worst of individuals until repeatedly proven wrong.  But, as a class, over the years, my interactions with most professionals have only confirmed one truth that applies to Scouting, as well as to many other pursuits in life:

"For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. By craving it, some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows."

 

 

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