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On 7/6/2021 at 9:46 AM, CynicalScouter said:

Here's the problem with having independent autonomous LCs and that is each LC gets to decide for itself if it will/will not have a camp.

A broad, national assessment of all camps and their utilization was probably warranted. But BSA National did NOT want to open that hornet's nest. Think about it. Pretend for a moment that the bankruptcy never happened and the abuse cases only a few in number.

BSA National sends out professionals to all 250 councils and does camp utilization assessments and produces a list of camps that, in their professional opinion, could be sold without harm to the LC.

There is no doubt in my mind that 80-90% of LCs would take that list, nod their heads up and down, and do nothing. The remaining 10-20% would flat out tell National to go shove it.

People were living in a wondrous nostalgia of "well, that was the camp I went to as a kid, so I don't want it sold" and those people make noise. The camps were never going to be reassessed on a national, systemic, holistic level unless and until something pushed the LCs to make those kinds of decisions.

The bankruptcy has now done so.

I think you are right.  With the loss of membership, the need for camp capacity has decreased. Folks don't want to emotionally let go of their childhood camp.  That is understandable. Culling unneeded camps is the ONLY positive of the Bankruptcy.

I have supported the sale of Philmont, though more than half my heart lies there.

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My opinion… councils don’t care.  Mine seems more than happy to be considering dumping their remaining two camps.  They said… go to State Parks.  Camps are seen as a liability to some councils.  Counc

Part of the problem, too, is that we are trying to create these country-club type experiences for people.  Swimming pools, air conditioning, hot showers and flush toilets, climbing towers, ATV program

Really? You're welcome to weed in my backyard any time. I have a great crop of bind weed and some nice thistle. Oh, and lots of mint.

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With all this movement, it will be interesting to see if sales are contingent on the larger agreement being accepted?  I suspect some of the sales would still happen without the settlement, but I'm sure some would not happen.

It's hard to coordinate such decisions when done by so many individual groups.  

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10 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I have supported the sale of Philmont, though more than half my heart lies there.

I would not support a sale even though I have not been there.  I've been to SeaBase and the BWCA camp.   

I would support transitioning it to a national park that is specialized and protected for all youth to use; including scouts. 

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5 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

With all this movement, it will be interesting to see if sales are contingent on the larger agreement being accepted?

Likely although in some of these states that are open/have no SoLs the sales are likely going to happen because they know if the settlement falls apart, the lawsuits pending against them will go forward and the LC will be in its own bankruptcy 30 seconds later.

In those states, the camps are as good as gone whether as part of a BSA settlement or as part of lawsuits against the LCs or as part of a LC bankruptcy.

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7 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Likely although in some of these states that are open/have no SoLs the sales are likely going to happen because they know if the settlement falls apart, the lawsuits pending against them will go forward and the LC will be in its own bankruptcy 30 seconds later.

In those states, the camps are as good as gone whether as part of a BSA settlement or as part of lawsuits against the LCs or as part of a LC bankruptcy.

Some yes.  Many probably.  

I'm thinking the decision matrix might change without a settlement.  Wait it out.  See what happens.  Councils might prefer a functional asset over a cash reserve.  Camps are hard to acquire and grow.  Keep them if you can.  Plus, large cash assets cause a different set of issues and can attract problems.  

Without a settlement to buy-into, the decision tree for hold-vs-sell changes.

I have no special knowledge.  Just curious.

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7/14/21:

Pathway to Adventure Council  (Chicago) sold Camp Lakota for $928,000  to McHenry County Conservation Foundation

According to Council Board President Marc Passiment, money from the sale will partly meet the council’s expected contribution to the sexual abuse settlement trust. Selling the camp has been under consideration since 2015.

More at source links:

https://www.mchenryconservation.org/news_detail_T7_R6.php

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-mchenry-boy-scout-camp-conservation-20210714-lt7nvc6rsjbalmqeojd3vbfym4-story.html

Edited by RememberSchiff
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Ozark Trails Council (MO) is considering selling the 180 acre Frank Childress Scout Reservation.

Council statement

The Ozark Trails Council is exploring ways to fund our council’s contribution to the survivor’s compensation Trust, as part of the national organization’s bankruptcy process, while ensuring that Scouting will continue serving youth and families in our communities for years to come. The sale of council property is a potential means to achieve both imperatives. 

The council received an unsolicited offer to purchase Frank Childress Scout Reservation, and our Executive Board is scheduled to vote on whether to accept that offer during its July 15th meeting as part of ongoing discussions on how to best position the council for the future. 

The decision to sell any council-owned property will be difficult. The reality is the Council Executive Board has few options to fund our contribution to the survivor’s Trust. Our leadership team is committed to making decisions that are in the best interest of continuing our important mission and delivering Scouting’s invaluable programs to youth in all 31 counties that make up the Ozark Trails Council. If this sale is approved, there will still be a council property within an hour’s drive for members from every corner of our council’s service area.

As a reminder, our council has not filed for bankruptcy. The Ozark Trails Council remains as dedicated as ever to delivering our nation’s foremost program for character development and values-based leadership training in our communities. Our council serves about 4,300 young people on an annual basis and will continue to do so throughout this process. We are looking forward to an enriching summer of programming, including water sports on Cow Creek, and overnight campouts at Plagens Wildlife Area and Frank Childress Scout Reservation. 

Source:

https://www.fourstateshomepage.com/news/the-boy-scouts-of-america-ozark-trails-council-is-considering-selling-a-reservation/

Edited by RememberSchiff
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Canyon Camp is saved

https://www.telegraphherald.com/news/tri-state/article_34c2cdb2-92df-5011-8f9e-7f458b7dac12.html

Quote

After a Stockton Boy Scoutcamp announced last week that regional officials planned to close their camp, the area council has confirmed the camp will continue operating.

And

Quote

“The Council Board has been instructed that we cannot share any figures or details of the settlement proposal until it is officially voted on,” the post read. “We can happily share that Canyon Camp will continue to remain open for business in 2022 and beyond!”

No details and the FB posting says the final proposal will be voted August 2, but if I had to bet they are going to opt to wipe out all their cash reserves in order to save the camp.

Edited by CynicalScouter
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Do we have a thread which addresses solely the activities and efforts taken by scouters/volunteers to have a voice in camp sale decisions before it is too late?

I've not heard a peep from my council, nor have I come across anyone who has.

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25 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

Do we have a thread which addresses solely the activities and efforts taken by scouters/volunteers to have a voice in camp sale decisions before it is too late?

Nope. I just know that the Canyon Camp effort was beaten back in part due to "more than 700" emails to the council.

https://www.facebook.com/CanyonCampBSA/photos/a.205861459437076/4332453153444532?comment_id=4332473266775854&reply_comment_id=4333521890004325

25 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

I've not heard a peep from my council, nor have I come across anyone who has.

That's because for the most part these are being produced by councils as "done deal" non-negotiable and not up for debate.

The decisions have already been made; the votes were required by July 9. If you haven't heard from your council it is because they don't want you to know at this point.

Many councils have stepped up and made announcements. Many however have not.

While (arguably) NDAs prohibit councils from announcing specific numbers they have to pay for settlement, there's nothing that prohibits announcing camp sales.

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2 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Do we have a thread which addresses solely the activities and efforts taken by scouters/volunteers to have a voice in camp sale decisions before it is too late?

I've not heard a peep from my council, nor have I come across anyone who has.

In general, in the past,  sometimes  Council Directors have done what they think they need to do, what they think they can do, and what they think they can get away with.   Owasippe and the Greater Chicago Council comes to mind.  Poor management of property, lost opportunities for letting the property earn it's keep, need for pensions (!),  belief that the locals won't object, that the CORs won't object (or know about it),  that the local incorporation documents have nothing to do with the thing....   and a lack of Scouters willing to make noise/waves, follow the money, embarrass the legalities....     

Camp land lost is rarely ever a camp again.  you could start here:  

 

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8 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I've not heard a peep from my council, nor have I come across anyone who has.

 

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

We must be in the same council :)

That would make 3 of us... Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if we found out that the council hold sold a camp when some troop shows up for a camping trip and is told, "Um, this isn't a scout camp anymore..."

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On 7/13/2021 at 11:04 AM, fred8033 said:

With all this movement, it will be interesting to see if sales are contingent on the larger agreement being accepted?  I suspect some of the sales would still happen without the settlement, but I'm sure some would not happen.

I know that the sale of Camp Freeland Leslie is not contingent as they are selling all of the gear to run camp in a "garage sale" online to be picked up on August 4th. It is my understanding that the council must be cleared out on August 30th. 

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On 7/13/2021 at 11:06 AM, fred8033 said:

I would not support a sale even though I have not been there.  I've been to SeaBase and the BWCA camp.   

I would support transitioning it to a national park that is specialized and protected for all youth to use; including scouts. 

Let the record reflect that I have been to Philmont.

That, as a crew leader scout, as a Philmont Ranger for 3 years, and senior Philmont Ranch staff for one year, 4 treks as an adult thereafter with scouts, and one Autumn Adventure. I was the senior youth in the Ranger staff in the 1970's, subordinate to two seniors and responsible for 119 Rangers.

I have walked about 2/3rds of Philmont's trails.  (A Ranger does not "hike" as that evokes "sweat" and Rangers do not sweat.)

I completed an event that made me a Philmont legend.

And the thought of Philmont fills my soul every day.

I wear a Philmont belt every day.

I am the WRONG person to whom to suggest that Philmont be sold.

Yet, so I recommend.

The fact remains that Philmont serves about 1 or 2 percent of all of the scouts in the program, and the local camps, perhaps to soon to be lost, serve 50% to 70% of scouts.]

So, were National REALLY protecting the children served by the program, local camps would be preserved, at the expense of national camps.

So, charge me not with disinterest in the fate of Philmont.

I have a framed map of Philmont in my home office and at my work office.

 

 

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