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Yes, I have three Scout camps within an hour drive of my home.  But we also live in a larger metro area.  As I think more about this we need to keep our strongest cub camp and let the other, and the council building go, if that works financially. 

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My opinion… councils don’t care.  Mine seems more than happy to be considering dumping their remaining two camps.  They said… go to State Parks.  Camps are seen as a liability to some councils.  Counc

Part of the problem, too, is that we are trying to create these country-club type experiences for people.  Swimming pools, air conditioning, hot showers and flush toilets, climbing towers, ATV program

Really? You're welcome to weed in my backyard any time. I have a great crop of bind weed and some nice thistle. Oh, and lots of mint.

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2 minutes ago, yknot said:

One should probably go so that a camp in another area with no camps survives. 

Here's the problem with having independent autonomous LCs and that is each LC gets to decide for itself if it will/will not have a camp.

A broad, national assessment of all camps and their utilization was probably warranted. But BSA National did NOT want to open that hornet's nest. Think about it. Pretend for a moment that the bankruptcy never happened and the abuse cases only a few in number.

BSA National sends out professionals to all 250 councils and does camp utilization assessments and produces a list of camps that, in their professional opinion, could be sold without harm to the LC.

There is no doubt in my mind that 80-90% of LCs would take that list, nod their heads up and down, and do nothing. The remaining 10-20% would flat out tell National to go shove it.

People were living in a wondrous nostalgia of "well, that was the camp I went to as a kid, so I don't want it sold" and those people make noise. The camps were never going to be reassessed on a national, systemic, holistic level unless and until something pushed the LCs to make those kinds of decisions.

The bankruptcy has now done so.

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7 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I think that Scouters need to plan with a 10 year time frame at a minimum, and that concedeing too many camps now is a recipe for slow death.

Some of this is not a matter of voluntarily "conceding" the camps. There are some councils that are going to be facing massive, massive price tags in order to get the sexual abuse claims settled.

The problem is that LCs are, for a variety of reasons, not telling the local scouters what that price tag is yet, but the numbers will get filed with the courts shortly. My understanding is that all councils have until this week to vote to participate or not in the bankruptcy settlement and that once the LCs all vote a document will be filed with the court indicating how much each council is contributing. It may very well be depending on the number of claims a council will have no choice but to sell many/most or even all camps.

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Our council stated that territories are coming in to evaluate camp needs between councils.  Don’t forget that it is highly likely many councils will merge post bankruptcy … so the sale of council camps must be coordinated.  So there is some coordination going on.  
 

While I am sad to see camps go, they were not fully utilized when we had 4M scouts let alone 1M.  A bunch of camps utilized at 25% capacity or worse leads to decline of all camps.   It would be better to focus use on fewer camps to increase their utilization.  Volunteer hours can then be focused on those camps. 

My biggest issue right now is that we are rushing through identifying which camps should be sold.  I wish we had years to coordinate so we can identify the optimal camp plan. Unfortunately, I think we are headed to big mistakes as we rush into these decisions.  

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2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

While I am sad to see camps go, they were not fully utilized when we had 4M scouts let alone 1M.  A bunch of camps utilized at 25% capacity or worse leads to decline of all camps.   It would be better to focus use on fewer camps to increase their utilization.  Volunteer hours can then be focused on those camps. 

My biggest issue right now is that we are rushing through identifying which camps should be sold.  I wish we had years to coordinate so we can identify the optimal camp plan. Unfortunately, I think we are headed to big mistakes as we rush into these decisions.  

The loss of these large properties is going to be tragic, not just for scouts but for conservation in general. The pandemic has shown that we don't have enough accessible open spaces for the public and thousands of acres are going to be lost because of this bankruptcy.  It is indeed a shame that this process will be so haphazard and rushed. Towns, counties and states along with conservation organizations might have some interest in preserving some of these camp properties, and maybe even ensuring continued scout access, but those kinds of sales take time and might not always result in the highest market value. 

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3 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

 

There is no doubt in my mind that 80-90% of LCs would take that list, nod their heads up and down, and do nothing. The remaining 10-20% would flat out tell National to go shove it.

People were living in a wondrous nostalgia of "well, that was the camp I went to as a kid, so I don't want it sold" and those people make noise. The camps were never going to be reassessed on a national, systemic, holistic level unless and until something pushed the LCs to make those kinds of decisions.

The bankruptcy has now done so.

You are right about the resistance but the sad part of it is that if it had been done more strategically many of these camp properties possibly could have been converted to public ownership to remain as parkland. 

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2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

A bunch of camps utilized at 25% capacity or worse leads to decline of all camps.   It would be better to focus use on fewer camps to increase their utilization.  Volunteer hours can then be focused on those camps. 

This makes a lot of sense to me. Why maintain a bunch of crummy worn out facilities IF we can maintain some really nice ones. It is asking a lot of the organization to think strategically. The org hasn’t been shown to be able to do that in the past. 

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Posted (edited)

July 6, 2021: Blackhawk Area Council (IL)  Executive Committee voted "to approve a Letter of Intent to create funding to meet a national obligation to pay the settlement for those abused in the Boy Scouts of America."

The Council Executive Board will meet on August 19th to decide if the sale should move forward..

Dan Dick, the Vice President of Outdoor Adventures (Lena, IL), said, “I am extremely disappointed. We have an obligation to the national organization to do our part, but not like this.”

The camp is operating with a budget surplus and serves more than 1,000 young people. Dick said more than 500 people have already reached out to the council within the last 24 hours.

“For some reason, this proposal was put forward without full board debate or full board considerations. A smaller executive committee met, and that was after an even smaller working group met, that did not have full representation,” Dick said.

Alternative solutions include a mixed use of funding streams such as a portion of the Blackhawk Area Council's $5,500,000 endowment ($1.5+M unrestricted) and $1.54M of real estate assets available (In addition to our sister camp which should not be considered) to be utilized for the Council contribution.  Concurrently, the Blackhawk Area Council receives more than $100,000 in funds from the legacy of the Frejd Family annually that is restricted specifically for our camps. A portion of these dollars can be used to fund a temporary mortgage on our Council camps as the produce revenue for the programs they provide.

Canyon Camp Alumni have started a petition to encourage the Blackhawk Area Council to save the camp.

Blackhawk Area Council, Boy Scouts of America statement:

To ensure we are best positioned to continue serving youth, families and communities for years to come, the Blackhawk Area Council is exploring ways to preserve its critical assets, while also compensating survivors by contributing to the Trust as part of the national organization’s bankruptcy process. Our contribution could include the partial sale of certain properties, but this has not yet been determined and it is too soon to speculate. That said, we fully intend to retain at least a portion of Canyon Camp, if not the entire property.

The national organization of the Boy Scouts of America and all local councils across the country are working together to achieve two key imperatives: equitably compensate survivors of past abuse in Scouting and ensure that Scouting continues in our communities and across the country for generations to come. This will involve difficult decisions, and we understand the concerns that may arise with our local Scouting community, but this is a necessary and important step as we work toward our shared imperatives. Our leadership team is committed to making decisions that are in the best interest of continuing our important mission and delivering Scouting’s invaluable programs to youth in our area.

As a reminder, our council has not filed for bankruptcy. The Blackhawk Area Council remains as dedicated as ever to delivering our nation’s foremost program for character development and values-based leadership training in the Rockford area. Our council provides countless experiences for young people in our area each year. We are looking forward to an enriching summer of programming, including family camping at Lowden, Scout Night at the Rockford Rivets and more.

Sources:

https://www.mystateline.com/news/local-news/boy-scouts-to-close-stockton-camp-to-settle-national-sex-abuse-lawsuit/

https://www.canyoncampbsa.org/save

https://www.wifr.com/2021/07/08/blackhawk-area-council-votes-close-canyon-camp/

Edited by RememberSchiff
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3 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

July 6, 2021: Blackhawk Area Council (IL)  Executive Committee voted "to approve a Letter of Intent to create funding to meet a national obligation to pay the settlement for those abused in the Boy Scouts of America."

The Council Executive Board will meet on August 19th to decide if the sale should move forward..

Dan Dick, the Vice President of Outdoor Adventures (Lena, IL), said, “I am extremely disappointed. We have an obligation to the national organization to do our part, but not like this.”

The camp is operating with a budget surplus and serves more than 1,000 young people. Dick said more than 500 people have already reached out to the council within the last 24 hours.

“For some reason, this proposal was put forward without full board debate or full board considerations. A smaller executive committee met, and that was after an even smaller working group met, that did not have full representation,” Dick said.

Alternative solutions include a mixed use of funding streams such as a portion of the Blackhawk Area Council's $5,500,000 endowment ($1.5+M unrestricted) and $1.54M of real estate assets available (In addition to our sister camp which should not be considered) to be utilized for the Council contribution.  Concurrently, the Blackhawk Area Council receives more than $100,000 in funds from the legacy of the Frejd Family annually that is restricted specifically for our camps. A portion of these dollars can be used to fund a temporary mortgage on our Council camps as the produce revenue for the programs they provide.

Canyon Camp Alumni have started a petition to encourage the Blackhawk Area Council to save the camp.

Blackhawk Area Council, Boy Scouts of America statement:

To ensure we are best positioned to continue serving youth, families and communities for years to come, the Blackhawk Area Council is exploring ways to preserve its critical assets, while also compensating survivors by contributing to the Trust as part of the national organization’s bankruptcy process. Our contribution could include the partial sale of certain properties, but this has not yet been determined and it is too soon to speculate. That said, we fully intend to retain at least a portion of Canyon Camp, if not the entire property.

The national organization of the Boy Scouts of America and all local councils across the country are working together to achieve two key imperatives: equitably compensate survivors of past abuse in Scouting and ensure that Scouting continues in our communities and across the country for generations to come. This will involve difficult decisions, and we understand the concerns that may arise with our local Scouting community, but this is a necessary and important step as we work toward our shared imperatives. Our leadership team is committed to making decisions that are in the best interest of continuing our important mission and delivering Scouting’s invaluable programs to youth in our area.

As a reminder, our council has not filed for bankruptcy. The Blackhawk Area Council remains as dedicated as ever to delivering our nation’s foremost program for character development and values-based leadership training in the Rockford area. Our council provides countless experiences for young people in our area each year. We are looking forward to an enriching summer of programming, including family camping at Lowden, Scout Night at the Rockford Rivets and more.

Sources:

https://www.mystateline.com/news/local-news/boy-scouts-to-close-stockton-camp-to-settle-national-sex-abuse-lawsuit/

https://www.canyoncampbsa.org/save

https://www.wifr.com/2021/07/08/blackhawk-area-council-votes-close-canyon-camp/

Sounds like the Council Exec. Board got together once they got the number from National and said which of our 2 camps do want to sell- the summer camp or the one with the fancy leadership center on it that we run a lot of our events at? We have what the Outdoor Chair says is alternative funding but with out seeing the letter of intent it makes it kind of hard to determine if this is a good or bad deal for either party without some numbers. . Plus according to the councils statement this isn't a done deal.  An interesting side note the Scout Exec was just hired in November 2020

Does anyone have that valuation/ number of cases charts handy? It might add some context to these announcements.   I tried digging through the Chapter 11 sub forums but its like looking for the needle in the haystack. 

I wonder how many more announcements we will see with this same type of boiler plate over the next week?

Mods If this isn't right place for this comment please move to where it needs to go.

Papa Bear 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, grizzly702 said:

Does anyone have that valuation/ number of cases charts handy?

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/ee5156a3-0c08-4833-a600-8256c44c8a56_5485.pdf

For Blackhawk you want

Page 404 (balance sheet)

Page 421 (asset lists)

  • Camp Lowden $ 1,010,000
  • Canyon Camp $1,668,940
  • Crystal Lake Sevice (sp) Center $510,000
  • Tumilowicz Center $755,000
  • Program Center $ 317,000

Page 443 (claims)

  • All Unique & Timely Abuse Claims = 151 (plus some shared with other councils)
  • All Not-Barred, Unique & Timely Abuse Claims = 15

Illinois is a "Gray 1" state, meaning under the BSA/TCC/Coalition plan all 151+ claims would be valued at 50%-70%

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/ee5156a3-0c08-4833-a600-8256c44c8a56_5485.pdf

For Blackhawk you want

Page 404 (balance sheet)

Page 421 (asset lists)

  • Camp Lowden $ 1,010,000
  • Canyon Camp $1,668,940
  • Crystal Lake Sevice (sp) Center $510,000
  • Tumilowicz Center $755,000
  • Program Center $ 317,000

Page 443 (claims)

  • All Unique & Timely Abuse Claims = 151 (plus some shared with other councils)
  • All Not-Barred, Unique & Timely Abuse Claims = 15

Illinois is a "Gray 1" state, meaning under the BSA/TCC/Coalition plan all 151+ claims would be valued at 50%-70%

 

 

 

Thanks @CynicalScouter. This council also has a district in Wisconsin which is gray 3 but I don't think that makes a difference since all the assets are in IL.  But I don't play an attorney onTV  and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. 

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Grand Canyon Council is required to contribute just over $7 million for the settlement trust.

This may be the first council to announce a specific number (well, close to specific "over $7 million") about how much they have to pay.

It is also a BIG deal in that GCC was a member of the Ad Hoc Committee of Local Councils. It also likely had a ton of LDS claims.

It is made up of parts of Arizona (an open state) and western New Mexico (Gray 1 = 50%-70% valuation of claims)

Let's break that down. All data from the 4th amended plan https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/ee5156a3-0c08-4833-a600-8256c44c8a56_5485.pdf

Balance Sheet

Assets

 

Cash & Equivalents

2,166,111

Land, Buildings, and Equipment

5,752,921

Long-Term Investments

6,233,695

Other Assets

115,989

TOTAL ASSETS

14,258,716

 

 

Liabilities

 

Debt

448,968

Other Liabilities

589,200

TOTAL LIABILITIES

1,038,168

 

 

Unrestricted Net Assets

9,582,089

Restricted Net Assets

3,638,459

TOTAL NET ASSETS

13,200,548

Asset lists

 R-C Scout Camp

$2,250,000

Unrestricted Asset (U)

Camp Geronimo

$4,641,300

Unrestricted Asset (U)

Camp Raymond

$3,810,443

Restricted Asset (R)

Heard Scout Pueblo

$7,350,000 OR $8,140,000

Unrestricted Asset (U)

Little Grand Canyon Ranch

$1,510,000

Unrestricted Asset (U)

Total Property

$19,561,743 OR $20,351,743

 

Total Unrestricted Property

$15,751,300 OR $16,541,300

 

Claims

  • All Unique & Timely Abuse Claims = 497 (plus some shared with other councils)

  • All Not-Barred, Unique & Timely Abuse Claims = 475

Bottom Line

$7 million represents:

  • 73% Unrestricted Net Assets (based on balance sheet)

  • 53% TOTAL NET ASSETS (based on balance sheet)

  • $14,085 per claim on average ($7,000,000/497)

  • 34-36% of property

  • 42-44% of all unrestricted property

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On 6/28/2021 at 12:32 PM, elitts said:

Also, most of the parks around me are actually trying to get away from "group" sites as much as possible.  Even well behaved groups can be awfully hard on a small area. 

I can't believe they will fully go away.  When we can't get a group site, we've reserved multiple individual sites.  We have to select them carefully to minimize noise and annoyance to other campers, but it can work.  Patrol used cabin style tents as we were limited to one or two per site.  But it worked.  

Essentially, if group sites aren't available, groups will reserve individual sites.  

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12 hours ago, satl8 said:

Grand Canyon Council has decided to sell Camp Geronimo and 10 acres of the Heard Scout Pueblo. 7M was the number we were given...

 

Grand Canyon Council announcement

So much for "The Council Executive Board will meet on August 19th to decide if the sale should move forward." , sounds like the decision has been made.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2021/07/09/grand-canyon-council-boy-scouts-america-plan-sale-arizona-land/7922406002/

 

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