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@skepticand @CynicalScouter let's just drop it right now.  

They are not human shields, they are youth being served a high quality program. Please stop with the baiting of using comparisons. Victims on this site have stated that it is painful to see tho

Part of the problem, too, is that we are trying to create these country-club type experiences for people.  Swimming pools, air conditioning, hot showers and flush toilets, climbing towers, ATV program

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1 hour ago, MattR said:

The bsa is fighting having external oversight and I think it's a mistake.

From what (most) of you guys have said, there is chronic flailing and perpetual shadow boxing from National against perceived enemies and interlopers.. Is this a combined symptom of leadership inbreeding, protection of “Mine! Not yours” and hubris? The blatant lack of transparency would lead pretty much anyone to conclude there are both skeletons in the closet (nod to Halloween) and money stuffed in the bunkhouse mattresses and buried in Mason jars all over Bechtel Summit grounds. No?

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2 hours ago, MattR said:

... the current process of defining ranks seems to be random - various silos arguing with each other.

Agreed.  That's why I view little IP cash value in the rank system.  The value is in "Eagle scout", the brand.  Or the whole BSA program as a whole.  The rest 

 

2 hours ago, MattR said:

I disagree that YP would necessarily be lessened. Break it off and use it for all youth activities. WOSM could make it a standard. If parents knew there was a standard for YP then they'd demand their children be under it. The bsa is fighting having external oversight and I think it's a mistake. Rather than be defensive they could be leaders. An independent standards organization would do a better job and offload liability. I would much rather see the bsa have one seat on the board of a YP standards organization than having one seat on their own board allotted to a YP person.

I view it as worse as other organizations have less.  If scouting continued under BPSA-USA or Trail Life or (another WOSM association), it would have zero starting point.  G2SS is not perfect, but it's a good starting point.  

I'm not against external YP oversight.  I would love to see a long-standing youth protection organization conceptually like FAA, FDA, FTSA, GAO, consumer reports, etc that is chartered to collect, analyze and report on youth protection through-out the country.  

 

3 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

IP is an asset and as such can and will likely be sold off. Probably to highest bidder, which means it could go to someone that wants to shut it down or to keep it going. It is a roll of the dice. 

BSA's IP includes every program (including Venturing and Sea Scouts, possibly the OA), every rank, including Eagle Scout, every merit badge and every award, other than religious awards. It includes the Oath and Law, Scout Handbook, Jamboree, Pinewood Derby, Philmont name (including bull and arrow head), even the FDL when used in conjunction with scouting activities (though WOSM has some control over that and it could argue for a new organization to use it).

If OA cannot be detached then it will include Ordeal, Brotherhood and Vigil, the Founders Award, DSA, obligation and song. 

Real property would include Philmont, Northerner Tier, Sea Base and BSR. Everything left in the museum. 

 

I don't see much IP cash value as much is dated / tainted.  Even $100m would be high.  A few items have strong brand value such as "Eagle Scout" and the BSA program.  But without BSA, I question how much people would pay for the IP.   Even at $100m, that's $1,000 for each currently listed victim ... before bankruptcy cost, contingency fees and higher priority debtors.  I doubt anything significant would be returned to victims.  

Even things like "pinewood derby" can be appropriated as some vendors do "pine car derby racing" and "speed racer".  Like xerox and kleenex, parents and kids will quickly call it a pinewood derby race.  

OA?  How much will others pay cash for an organization that has cultural appropriation issues rooted right in it's name?   

Ranks?  They change and others use exactly the same name.  Tenderfoot.  2nd class.  1st class.  And are the ranks ranks or awards or joining levels or ... it changes ...   

Merit badges?  Others have proficiency badges that I'm really betting parents call merit badges.  

BSA's IP value is in keeping it together and running.  If BSA were ever liquidated and without the name BSA, I really question the individual brand values.  Heck, GSUSA would be lurking in the woods to assert brand / copy-right infringement issues.

 

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7 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Agreed.  That's why I view little IP cash value in the rank system.  The value is in "Eagle scout", the brand.  Or the whole BSA program as a whole.  The rest 

 

I view it as worse as other organizations have less.  If scouting continued under BPSA-USA or Trail Life or (another WOSM association), it would have zero starting point.  G2SS is not perfect, but it's a good starting point.  

I'm not against external YP oversight.  I would love to see a long-standing youth protection organization conceptually like FAA, FDA, FTSA, GAO, consumer reports, etc that is chartered to collect, analyze and report on youth protection through-out the country.  

 

I don't see much IP cash value as much is dated / tainted.  Even $100m would be high.  A few items have strong brand value such as "Eagle Scout" and the BSA program.  But without BSA, I question how much people would pay for the IP.   Even at $100m, that's $1,000 for each currently listed victim ... before bankruptcy cost, contingency fees and higher priority debtors.  I doubt anything significant would be returned to victims.  

Even things like "pinewood derby" can be appropriated as some vendors do "pine car derby racing" and "speed racer".  Like xerox and kleenex, parents and kids will quickly call it a pinewood derby race.  

OA?  How much will others pay cash for an organization that has cultural appropriation issues rooted right in it's name?   

Ranks?  They change and others use exactly the same name.  Tenderfoot.  2nd class.  1st class.  And are the ranks ranks or awards or joining levels or ... it changes ...   

Merit badges?  Others have proficiency badges that I'm really betting parents call merit badges.  

BSA's IP value is in keeping it together and running.  If BSA were ever liquidated and without the name BSA, I really question the individual brand values.  Heck, GSUSA would be lurking in the woods to assert brand / copy-right infringement issues.

 

I don't think they would get anywhere near $100m from it. But that was not the question, it was WHAT IS their IP. And that IP would be sold off for whatever value could be realized. At that point how or if it was used would be up to the new owners. Severed from BSA, I doubt it has much value at all. 

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18 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

I don't think they would get anywhere near $100m from it. But that was not the question, it was WHAT IS their IP. And that IP would be sold off for whatever value could be realized. At that point how or if it was used would be up to the new owners. Severed from BSA, I doubt it has much value at all. 

I think it would have value if anyone bought PR or BSR and attempted to turn one or both into a Disney style family wilderness resort experience. 

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4 minutes ago, yknot said:

I think it would have value if anyone bought PR or BSR and attempted to turn one or both into a Disney style family wilderness resort experience. 

I assume you mean the land (I say assume because the name Philmont is also IP, not sure about BSR). 

As land, both have value. I was speaking to IP only in the post you quoted.

I would say it is not likely to be Disney style property with Philmont as contains some historic land marks and borders several very large private ranches as well as state (and I believe federal) protected lands. 

I can see it being purchased by the state or feds (at a greatly reduced price), al la Carson NF, Valle Vidal and Cimerron SP. 

Some billionaire pseudo rancher could buy it, like Ted Turner (he already owns Vermejo, which borders PR to the NE). I don't know if Chase Ranch to the South has the cash to buy it. 

Not sure about how BSR would shake out, there is still massive debt on that property. So it would likely end up with the banks and probably parsed out. 

I also believe there are restrictions and covenants on both, which would come into play.

I for one hope we do not get there, ever.

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17 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

I assume you mean the land (I say assume because the name Philmont is also IP, not sure about BSR). 

As land, both have value. I was speaking to IP only in the post you quoted.

I would say it is not likely to be Disney style property with Philmont as contains some historic land marks and borders several very large private ranches as well as state (and I believe federal) protected lands. 

I can see it being purchased by the state or feds (at a greatly reduced price), al la Carson NF, Valle Vidal and Cimerron SP. 

Some billionaire pseudo rancher could buy it, like Ted Turner (he already owns Vermejo, which borders PR to the NE). I don't know if Chase Ranch to the South has the cash to buy it. 

Not sure about how BSR would shake out, there is still massive debt on that property. So it would likely end up with the banks and probably parsed out. 

I also believe there are restrictions and covenants on both, which would come into play.

I for one hope we do not get there, ever.

Even if PR and BSR are not available, you could also pick a few regional council camps that are up for sale within an hour or two drive of urban areas and develop those.  I am not saying there is outrageous value in the IP, just that it does have a potential market. 

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2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

What? Twice the estimated? Something ain't right.

A sale by or to a Non-profit or by or to a government unit is generally assumed to not be an "Arm-Length Transaction" (which are the basis of Appraisals) because often times neither group is a "Typically motivated buyer or seller".  So those transactions are often not in line with actual market values of property.  And beyond that, it's not unusual for Local Governments to drastically overpay for stuff when they are tapping "free money" from some state or federal pot, usually because the time-frames involved in using those funds is fairly limited so they don't have the ability or inclination to do standard bargaining or market research.

 

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7 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Grrr...that is where our PLC chose for Summer Camp next year.

Article says council gets to use the property for the next five years.  I'll call to determine if we have to find a new camp for next year.

There is another Sabattis Camp. A different Council, but also does Patrol Cooking. 

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