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2 hours ago, 1980Scouter said:

With all the camps being sold during bankruptcy and before, this is a big thank you to all who helped maintain them over the years and donated money for them. 

The camps would not exist in the first place without donations of money or land by people who believed in scouting. Then often, especially in later  years maintenance was done by a dedicated group of volunteers who cared for the camp. They may have been scouts or parents attending a camp and decided to give back. 

At least many camps in my area did not have full time rangers after the mid 90's. So the role of volunteers increased greatly. They often donated supplies to repair things or got suppliers to give the camp really good deals in items. 

I think this is one of the overlooked things in bankruptcy that so many people put their heart and soul into these camps.

Very true, but it is simply more of the modern problem in society to ignore, belittle, or somehow take the overall positive element away to "fix" the negatives, no matter how much greater good may have come from it, and could in the future.  Or, as we keep seeing, "throwing the baby out with the water".

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@skepticand @CynicalScouter let's just drop it right now.  

They are not human shields, they are youth being served a high quality program. Please stop with the baiting of using comparisons. Victims on this site have stated that it is painful to see tho

Part of the problem, too, is that we are trying to create these country-club type experiences for people.  Swimming pools, air conditioning, hot showers and flush toilets, climbing towers, ATV program

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1 hour ago, skeptic said:

take the overall positive element away to "fix" the negatives, no matter how much greater good may have come from it, and could in the future.

So your position is that victims of child sexual abuse that took place as the result of the negligence of local councils and BSA should not be able to claim any camp assets as part of the settlement?

Again  and again and again we keep coming back to this idea of using today’s scouts as human shields for BSA’s negligence.

do you wanna talk about greater good? I’ll take that math right now:

at least 82,500 instances of child sexual abuse.

put that on one side of the equation and you tell me what the greater good is that in anyway justifies equates or negates those attacks.

Do NOT talk to me about “greater good”

Since everybody here is so focused on listing the number of camps and the “greater good” maybe I should start posting redacted snippets from the over 2000 letters of abuse that have been filed with the court

Instead a thread on "bankruptcy losses" maybe "WHY those losses are occurring".

Then you can start to talk about which "good" is greater.

Then tell me about greater goods.

so long as you only look at the costs without understanding why those costs have to be paid and having it put right in front of your face I don’t think you’ll do anything but deny deny deny

Edited by CynicalScouter
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On 10/7/2021 at 8:43 AM, RememberSchiff said:

I see a large Mobil Mart/Dunkins/McDonalds in its future. 

Expect a car dealership here.  The immediate area has several of them, and the buyer is affiliated with an existing Jeep dealership in nearby Leominster, Mass.

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7 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

Please stop with the baiting of using comparisons. Victims on this site have stated that it is painful to see those comparison. Yet, you continue to poke and prod to get them. 

I can only conclude, you do not care if it is painful to them or you re trolling to get people to respond so you can rant more about your hatred for Scouting or if you just hope if scream loud enough other posters will just quit the site and go away (as it appears you have already succeed with @Daivd CO)

I am not sure what exact comparisons you are referring to but as a victim I do not mind seeing comparisons.  As for @David COI myself have been a victim of @David CO constant down votes and frankly I think he was getting a taste of what he was giving.  Getting his down votes with no explanation as to why was getting quite aggravating.

 

7 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

Scouting has greatly helped 120-130 million scouts in its history. Does that, erase, make of for, mitigate or lessen what happened to 82,00 scouts? Absolutely not.

I am sure that scouting has helped many individuals and many others got nothing from the program and many of were permanently scarred from our abuse. I for one believe @CynicalScouterhas faith in the program or he would not continue to be involved.

But also see a lot of posts where people are complaining about how restitution to victims from BSA is hurting the "current youth" and phrases such as why should the current youth pay for BSA's past?  When i see such phrasing it makes me think that the poster believes victims should get less and we are asking for far to much.  I do find talk such as that to be quite insulting and demeaning.  

8 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

You seem determined to burn Scouting to the ground. I am just as determined to preserve it because of the good it has and continues to do, and to find ways to prevent these horrible things for happening anymore. 

I do not find this statement to be true when I read @CynicalScouter,s posts.  I sincerely believe there can be good in scouting if enough controls are put in place.

 

8 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

As one of the victims on this site pointed out some of your post are not helpful. 

I think we all post occasionally things that are not helpful including myself.  Most often this happens in the passion of the moment.

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8 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

But also see a lot of posts where people are complaining about how restitution to victims from BSA is hurting the "current youth" and phrases such as why should the current youth pay for BSA's past?  When i see such phrasing it makes me think that the poster believes victims should get less and we are asking for far to much.  I do find talk such as that to be quite insulting and demeaning.  

Speaking for myself, It is not that I want less for the victims, but rather wishing they would go after the perps who did this to them.

One CSA victim who I am friends with and talk to on a regular basis is not involved in the case. His views are what many people think. He says that even if todays' YP standards were put in place when he was abused, "it would have still occurred because perverts will do what they can, when they can." As for COs not doing their part, these perps will hide behind a public persona. His victim was, " a well known and respected physician in the community. No background check would show anything, and everyone knew him." He also said "they only people making money off this lawsuit is the lawyers. the victims are going to get $%^&#@D again, this time by their lawyers. It's a money grab." The CSA victim himself states that the folks getting hurt are the CSA victims for having to relive their nightmares and today's Scouts who will have to pay for it. "The perverts get off scot free cause most are dead, and the lawyers get their money."

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58 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Speaking for myself, It is not that I want less for the victims, but rather wishing they would go after the perps who did this to them.

1) The perps are likely dead.

2) There are two separate causes of action here: the abuse itself (the abuser) and the negligence in allowing it to happen in the first place/failure of duty to care for minors (BSA, LCs, and COs). Again, two separate issues.

3) The victims are under NO legal obligation whatsoever to "go after the perps"; that burden is now on the BSA through what is called an impleader. If BSA thinks it is being improperly sued and that the REAL entity that should be sued is the perp, they then simply pay a filing fee and sue the perp for recovery. But again, that's not the issue. The BSA's negligence in allowing the abuse it a SEPARATE issue from the abuse itself.

Edited by CynicalScouter
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Sioux Council has accepted $2M offer on 223 acre Newton Hills Scout Camp from South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks. The property had been appraised at $3.59 million by the state.

Somewhat unusual for the times, there is no mention of the bankruptcy or contributing to the settlement.

"The Newton Hills scout camp was built during the 1930s and would require the most improvements of the Sioux Council's three scout camps to bring it up to the Boy Scouts of America standards, including a storm shelter, modernized latrines and showers for the campers...

Funds from the property sale would primarily be used to build storm shelters at the two remaining camps. A wetlands project and museum of paleontology are also in the works for the Lewis and Clark scout camp."

Source:

https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/2021/10/11/newton-hills-campgrounds-track-sold-november-state-park-south-dakota-game-fish/6091162001/

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The Chief Cornplanter Council (PA) will pay their total trust contribution $260,931.32 from timber sales. No council property, which is totallly assessed at $196,204, will be sold.

Source:

https://www.timesobserver.com/news/local-news/2021/10/local-bsa-council-wont-have-to-sell-properties-in-bankruptcy-case/

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4 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

The Chief Cornplanter Council (PA) will pay their total trust contribution $260,931.32 from timber sales. No council property, which is totallly assessed at $196,204, will be sold.

Source:

https://www.timesobserver.com/news/local-news/2021/10/local-bsa-council-wont-have-to-sell-properties-in-bankruptcy-case/

That has to be a typo on land values. That would be extremely cheap land.

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31 minutes ago, 1980Scouter said:

That has to be a typo on land values. That would be extremely cheap land.

Possibly a typo, but it's sparsely populated. Warren County PA has a population of 41k as of the 2010 census. County seat of Warren is 9.7 k. The land there is probably pretty cheap 

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