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12 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

I like that.  Those do not really need to be pricey options though, depending on the instructor.  I am a Red Cross instructor for First Aid/CPR/AED and Wilderness First Aid, so I know what instructors pay Red Cross for those certification cards, and would wager that in many cases it is nothing close to what they are charging the student. 

The cost for the First Aid/CPR/AED is cheap.  It is the Wilderness First Aid that is expensive.  I'd be interested in knowing how much the WFA cert cards cost.

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IMHO it would also be a good time to rethink "Eagle required" merit badges - subject areas, number, difficulty...

Good. Those who oppose the mere existence of this badge will cheer the delay. Those who want it done right will cheer that this was rushed and will now be properly vetted.

Most scouts I talk with don't get much out of the MB program as it currently exists. Anything that actually helps them learn a skill is appreciated by the scouts. Anything covered in school is conside

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1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

Unfortunately one of the primary purposes for mBs has been long since ignored. Mbs  are a  medium for the Adult Association  method with an expert  in a specific field of study (and an adult who is new to them).

Yep.  Another primary purpose is to expose the scout to new areas that might interest them.  This is defeated with so, so many overlapping with school and rank requirements.  Instead, scouts should be able to leverage available experts.  Maybe some troops have access to an expert astronomer.  Maybe others have access to camp at a dairy farm.  
 

QUESTION ... Should we re-think the MBC idea?  It's subverted by using registered leaders in your own troop.  Maybe, keep existing MBCs, but also let troops / unit committees additionally recognize MBs where a local expert is available, but not registered as a MBC.  In that case, a registered leader could tag along with multiple scouts and serve as the person who confirms the MB requirements were covered.  I don't have the right answer, but the current MB program is not as great as people make out and often a joke to many of the scouts.

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1 hour ago, mashmaster said:

The cost for the First Aid/CPR/AED is cheap.  It is the Wilderness First Aid that is expensive.  I'd be interested in knowing how much the WFA cert cards cost.

I can only speak to the American Red Cross as that is who I have my instructor certification through.   My employer is an authorized provider with the Red Cross and I teach BBP, First Aid, and CPR for my employer for our employees.  I also teach my Scouts these skills and am a WFA Instructor.  Wilderness First Aid is $23 as far as the Red Cross fee for the course in 2020.  The instructor may have you purchase materials as well, but they can actually be printed from the ARC website by the participants.  There are supplies the instructor may need to get for the course that can't easily be reused like components of a moulage kit or bandages.  I tack a small fee on for each participant to help keep the supplies stocked.  Other providers do charge more to put on the course.  

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2 hours ago, acema606 said:

I can only speak to the American Red Cross as that is who I have my instructor certification through.   My employer is an authorized provider with the Red Cross and I teach BBP, First Aid, and CPR for my employer for our employees.  I also teach my Scouts these skills and am a WFA Instructor.  Wilderness First Aid is $23 as far as the Red Cross fee for the course in 2020.  The instructor may have you purchase materials as well, but they can actually be printed from the ARC website by the participants.  There are supplies the instructor may need to get for the course that can't easily be reused like components of a moulage kit or bandages.  I tack a small fee on for each participant to help keep the supplies stocked.  Other providers do charge more to put on the course.  

wow, that is a lot less that we pay.

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11 hours ago, mashmaster said:

The cost for the First Aid/CPR/AED is cheap.  It is the Wilderness First Aid that is expensive.  I'd be interested in knowing how much the WFA cert cards cost.

The portion of the registration fee that actually goes to the Red Cross is $24.  Depending on how the course is set up, some of the balance goes to cost of the student manual (both full size and pocket guide), which is $17.  The rest may go to your council if it is a council sponsored course, or to the instructor.

When I teach First Aid/CPR/AED for our council, I do not collect anything above the cost of the card.

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3 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

When I teach First Aid/CPR/AED for our council, I do not collect anything above the cost of the card.

When I do these, I assess a small fee to cover the cost of my qualification and materials (instructor certification, curriculum slides, projector, computer, CPR manikins & bags, practice AED, bandages, etc.) that I paid out of pocket to start up the operation.  Still less than half the cost you'd see by council or on the market. 

CPR/AED costs about $110 and WFA costs about $200 in these parts.  I do CPR/AED for $35, WFA for $60 (includes both).

When I offered to do these for council at bare-minimum cost, and the professional training advisor said "No."  The reason given was that they had professional relationships to maintain outside of Scouting, and that undercutting prices for services Scouters get from Red Cross/REI/NOLS/American Heart, etc., etc. would damage those relationships. (I remain skeptical.)  If I did them through council, we had to charge a rate comparable to the market.

I taught these for our council contingents to Philmont a few years ago, taught in council facilities.  Council charged them the $200 per person, folded that into the cost per participant, and gave me my $60 per, which is all I asked...

I will no longer spend my time being a revenue generator for council.  I gladly teach volunteers, and they arrange for facilities and snacks...

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2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

When I do these, I assess a small fee to cover the cost of my qualification and materials (instructor certification, curriculum slides, projector, computer, CPR manikins & bags, practice AED, bandages, etc.) that I paid out of pocket to start up the operation.  Still less than half the cost you'd see by council or on the market. 

CPR/AED costs about $110 and WFA costs about $200 in these parts.  I do CPR/AED for $35, WFA for $60 (includes both).

When I offered to do these for council at bare-minimum cost, and the professional training advisor said "No."  The reason given was that they had professional relationships to maintain outside of Scouting, and that undercutting prices for services Scouters get from Red Cross/REI/NOLS/American Heart, etc., etc. would damage those relationships. (I remain skeptical.)  If I did them through council, we had to charge a rate comparable to the market.

I taught these for our council contingents to Philmont a few years ago, taught in council facilities.  Council charged them the $200 per person, folded that into the cost per participant, and gave me my $60 per, which is all I asked...

I will no longer spend my time being a revenue generator for council.  I gladly teach volunteers, and they arrange for facilities and snacks...

Hey, come to Central texas and teach us WFA.  I will smoke a brisket for you 🙂

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1 minute ago, mashmaster said:

Hey, come to Central texas and teach us WFA.  I will smoke a brisket for you 🙂

You cover airfare and rental car, and I'm in!!  I have relatives in SA and Fort Worth areas...which is closer?? :)

So, if you can recruit someone to do it for your unit/council, here's what I did...

Week long course at Philmont Training Center to be a certified WFA Instructor.  Includes certification to teach CPR/AED and Standard First Aid.  Cost for me back then was about $400 for the course.  We made it a family road trip, and the wife and kids did a week long program there too.  

If you haven't been to PTC, highly recommended.  They did a great job.

Then you have to purchase the training materials from the course provider...about another $250 (can't see my old invoices now), depending on the provider

Then buy CPR manikins and supplies, and a practice AED...another $750.

Practice First Aid supplies, Projector, computer, etc, etc,

All in, you are there for about $1500 minimum if you already have the tech support.  That is the cost of about 8 WFA courses if your unit pays for them...

You can recoup the cost of your outlay by training other units for a minimal fee.

Worth considering...

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On 1/9/2021 at 6:18 PM, fred8033 said:

QUESTION ... Should we re-think the MBC idea?  It's subverted by using registered leaders in your own troop.  Maybe, keep existing MBCs, but also let troops / unit committees additionally recognize MBs where a local expert is available, but not registered as a MBC.  In that case, a registered leader could tag along with multiple scouts and serve as the person who confirms the MB requirements were covered.  I don't have the right answer, but the current MB program is not as great as people make out and often a joke to many of the scouts.

This is an interesting idea. The only issue I could see is if the leader and expert have a difference of opinion for completion. Happens with scoutmasters all the time.

I'm not sure there is an easy answer. When learned that parents envision Sandy Hook possibilities in their unit, there is no way they are going to let a stranger work independently with the scouts, even under your idea. 

I see virtual meetings becoming a real path for these things, but I don't believe the scouts will get the same benefits as they would from a personal experience with the MBC

Barry

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One of the other opportunities denied to scouts by the often used mB University, Summer Camp, Troop-based mBC, etc... is the opportunity to make the initial contact with an unknown adult mB counselor. The entire process was well thought out and the process itself provides significant opportunities for scouts well beyond the specific mB reqs. By having the SM give a list of mB counselors to the scout and the scout taking the intiative to make the contact, set-up the appointment and follow-through IMO is possibly the greatest loss in the current (most commonly used) system.

I still remember the time I had to call my first mB counselor, I was scared to death. Calling an adult whom I has never met? The conquering of the fear and the development of communication skills necessary was probably one of the greatest learning opportunities I could have experienced. The mB process with registered mBcs provides a safe and positive opportunity for me to develop these skills and overcome the fear. When it was time for me to begin my Eagle project, making contacts to unknown adults who had no part of scouting was much easier. 

Regardless of what the system changes too, I will continue to advocate for the process to require scouts making contact with the mBcs and reduce (eliminate?) any adult appointment settings. We must remember the process provides (or denies) growth and learning opportunities as much if not more than the badge requirements themselves.

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1 minute ago, DuctTape said:

Regardless of what the system changes too, I will continue to advocate for the process to require scouts making contact with the mBcs and reduce (eliminate?) any adult appointment settings. We must remember the process provides (or denies) growth and learning opportunities as much if not more than the badge requirements themselves.

I am guilty of this...mostly because of convenience, and to thwart the parents who previously did this on behalf of their Scouts.  That is, when I provided Scouts with MBC info, about 75% of the parents would make the call on their Scouts behalf to set it up. 

I agree with you, and will modify my behavior on this one...putting this back on the shoulders of the Scouts.

What do you think about this idea?

When Scout asks for counselor info for a MB, I will send an email to the Scout with about three counselors' contact info, and explicit instructions that this is their responsibility, not their parents'.  CC the parents, and BCC the counselors.  Sets expectations for all three parties in one fell swoop.

Couldn't do this before, as our MBC lists had only telephone and address info.  Now Scoutbook gives you email & phone for MBCs.

Thoughts?

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4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

I am guilty of this...mostly because of convenience, and to thwart the parents who previously did this on behalf of their Scouts.  That is, when I provided Scouts with MBC info, about 75% of the parents would make the call on their Scouts behalf to set it up. 

I agree with you, and will modify my behavior on this one...putting this back on the shoulders of the Scouts.

What do you think about this idea?

When Scout asks for counselor info for a MB, I will send an email to the Scout with about three counselors' contact info, and explicit instructions that this is their responsibility, not their parents'.  CC the parents, and BCC the counselors.  Sets expectations for all three parties in one fell swoop.

Couldn't do this before, as our MBC lists had only telephone and address info.  Now Scoutbook gives you email & phone for MBCs.

Thoughts?

I like the idea, especially he part about communicating with the parents. I think many parents need the help and support of scouters to educate them on the reasons for scouting processes.  Barry (iirc) often writes about spending time with adults to help them understand the "why" for our processes. I think that is vital. If the parents don't understand, they are unable to support their scout on his journey and without realizing hamper their growth.

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5 hours ago, DuctTape said:

One of the other opportunities denied to scouts by the often used mB University, Summer Camp, Troop-based mBC, etc... is the opportunity to make the initial contact with an unknown adult mB counselor. The entire process was well thought out and the process itself provides significant opportunities for scouts well beyond the specific mB reqs. By having the SM give a list of mB counselors to the scout and the scout taking the intiative to make the contact, set-up the appointment and follow-through IMO is possibly the greatest loss in the current (most commonly used) system.

I still remember the time I had to call my first mB counselor, I was scared to death. Calling an adult whom I has never met? The conquering of the fear and the development of communication skills necessary was probably one of the greatest learning opportunities I could have experienced. The mB process with registered mBcs provides a safe and positive opportunity for me to develop these skills and overcome the fear. When it was time for me to begin my Eagle project, making contacts to unknown adults who had no part of scouting was much easier. 

Regardless of what the system changes too, I will continue to advocate for the process to require scouts making contact with the mBcs and reduce (eliminate?) any adult appointment settings. We must remember the process provides (or denies) growth and learning opportunities as much if not more than the badge requirements themselves.

Great post. We used the first MB to guide scouts in Building confidence for contacting adults. We showed them how to write down on a piece of paper the scouts name, the troop he is with and the reason he was calling. He could practice his first call simply by reading the list. The list is really a crutch to help them through brain lock. We also contacted the parents to encourage them to cheer their son on if he needed. This was also a passive way of saying “let your son do this”.
 

We originally  thought a scout would need to do at least 3 MBs to gain the confidence for calling adults, but we found that only 1 or 2 was all most needed.

As DuctTape points out, MBs can teach a lot of life skills beyond the skills of the badge.

Barry

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