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12 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

I like that.  Those do not really need to be pricey options though, depending on the instructor.  I am a Red Cross instructor for First Aid/CPR/AED and Wilderness First Aid, so I know what instructors pay Red Cross for those certification cards, and would wager that in many cases it is nothing close to what they are charging the student. 

The cost for the First Aid/CPR/AED is cheap.  It is the Wilderness First Aid that is expensive.  I'd be interested in knowing how much the WFA cert cards cost.

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IMHO it would also be a good time to rethink "Eagle required" merit badges - subject areas, number, difficulty...

Most scouts I talk with don't get much out of the MB program as it currently exists. Anything that actually helps them learn a skill is appreciated by the scouts. Anything covered in school is conside

Good. Those who oppose the mere existence of this badge will cheer the delay. Those who want it done right will cheer that this was rushed and will now be properly vetted.

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1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

Unfortunately one of the primary purposes for mBs has been long since ignored. Mbs  are a  medium for the Adult Association  method with an expert  in a specific field of study (and an adult who is new to them).

Yep.  Another primary purpose is to expose the scout to new areas that might interest them.  This is defeated with so, so many overlapping with school and rank requirements.  Instead, scouts should be able to leverage available experts.  Maybe some troops have access to an expert astronomer.  Maybe others have access to camp at a dairy farm.  
 

QUESTION ... Should we re-think the MBC idea?  It's subverted by using registered leaders in your own troop.  Maybe, keep existing MBCs, but also let troops / unit committees additionally recognize MBs where a local expert is available, but not registered as a MBC.  In that case, a registered leader could tag along with multiple scouts and serve as the person who confirms the MB requirements were covered.  I don't have the right answer, but the current MB program is not as great as people make out and often a joke to many of the scouts.

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1 hour ago, mashmaster said:

The cost for the First Aid/CPR/AED is cheap.  It is the Wilderness First Aid that is expensive.  I'd be interested in knowing how much the WFA cert cards cost.

I can only speak to the American Red Cross as that is who I have my instructor certification through.   My employer is an authorized provider with the Red Cross and I teach BBP, First Aid, and CPR for my employer for our employees.  I also teach my Scouts these skills and am a WFA Instructor.  Wilderness First Aid is $23 as far as the Red Cross fee for the course in 2020.  The instructor may have you purchase materials as well, but they can actually be printed from the ARC website by the participants.  There are supplies the instructor may need to get for the course that can't easily be reused like components of a moulage kit or bandages.  I tack a small fee on for each participant to help keep the supplies stocked.  Other providers do charge more to put on the course.  

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2 hours ago, acema606 said:

I can only speak to the American Red Cross as that is who I have my instructor certification through.   My employer is an authorized provider with the Red Cross and I teach BBP, First Aid, and CPR for my employer for our employees.  I also teach my Scouts these skills and am a WFA Instructor.  Wilderness First Aid is $23 as far as the Red Cross fee for the course in 2020.  The instructor may have you purchase materials as well, but they can actually be printed from the ARC website by the participants.  There are supplies the instructor may need to get for the course that can't easily be reused like components of a moulage kit or bandages.  I tack a small fee on for each participant to help keep the supplies stocked.  Other providers do charge more to put on the course.  

wow, that is a lot less that we pay.

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11 hours ago, mashmaster said:

The cost for the First Aid/CPR/AED is cheap.  It is the Wilderness First Aid that is expensive.  I'd be interested in knowing how much the WFA cert cards cost.

The portion of the registration fee that actually goes to the Red Cross is $24.  Depending on how the course is set up, some of the balance goes to cost of the student manual (both full size and pocket guide), which is $17.  The rest may go to your council if it is a council sponsored course, or to the instructor.

When I teach First Aid/CPR/AED for our council, I do not collect anything above the cost of the card.

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3 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

When I teach First Aid/CPR/AED for our council, I do not collect anything above the cost of the card.

When I do these, I assess a small fee to cover the cost of my qualification and materials (instructor certification, curriculum slides, projector, computer, CPR manikins & bags, practice AED, bandages, etc.) that I paid out of pocket to start up the operation.  Still less than half the cost you'd see by council or on the market. 

CPR/AED costs about $110 and WFA costs about $200 in these parts.  I do CPR/AED for $35, WFA for $60 (includes both).

When I offered to do these for council at bare-minimum cost, and the professional training advisor said "No."  The reason given was that they had professional relationships to maintain outside of Scouting, and that undercutting prices for services Scouters get from Red Cross/REI/NOLS/American Heart, etc., etc. would damage those relationships. (I remain skeptical.)  If I did them through council, we had to charge a rate comparable to the market.

I taught these for our council contingents to Philmont a few years ago, taught in council facilities.  Council charged them the $200 per person, folded that into the cost per participant, and gave me my $60 per, which is all I asked...

I will no longer spend my time being a revenue generator for council.  I gladly teach volunteers, and they arrange for facilities and snacks...

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2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

When I do these, I assess a small fee to cover the cost of my qualification and materials (instructor certification, curriculum slides, projector, computer, CPR manikins & bags, practice AED, bandages, etc.) that I paid out of pocket to start up the operation.  Still less than half the cost you'd see by council or on the market. 

CPR/AED costs about $110 and WFA costs about $200 in these parts.  I do CPR/AED for $35, WFA for $60 (includes both).

When I offered to do these for council at bare-minimum cost, and the professional training advisor said "No."  The reason given was that they had professional relationships to maintain outside of Scouting, and that undercutting prices for services Scouters get from Red Cross/REI/NOLS/American Heart, etc., etc. would damage those relationships. (I remain skeptical.)  If I did them through council, we had to charge a rate comparable to the market.

I taught these for our council contingents to Philmont a few years ago, taught in council facilities.  Council charged them the $200 per person, folded that into the cost per participant, and gave me my $60 per, which is all I asked...

I will no longer spend my time being a revenue generator for council.  I gladly teach volunteers, and they arrange for facilities and snacks...

Hey, come to Central texas and teach us WFA.  I will smoke a brisket for you 🙂

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1 minute ago, mashmaster said:

Hey, come to Central texas and teach us WFA.  I will smoke a brisket for you 🙂

You cover airfare and rental car, and I'm in!!  I have relatives in SA and Fort Worth areas...which is closer?? :)

So, if you can recruit someone to do it for your unit/council, here's what I did...

Week long course at Philmont Training Center to be a certified WFA Instructor.  Includes certification to teach CPR/AED and Standard First Aid.  Cost for me back then was about $400 for the course.  We made it a family road trip, and the wife and kids did a week long program there too.  

If you haven't been to PTC, highly recommended.  They did a great job.

Then you have to purchase the training materials from the course provider...about another $250 (can't see my old invoices now), depending on the provider

Then buy CPR manikins and supplies, and a practice AED...another $750.

Practice First Aid supplies, Projector, computer, etc, etc,

All in, you are there for about $1500 minimum if you already have the tech support.  That is the cost of about 8 WFA courses if your unit pays for them...

You can recoup the cost of your outlay by training other units for a minimal fee.

Worth considering...

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On 1/9/2021 at 6:18 PM, fred8033 said:

QUESTION ... Should we re-think the MBC idea?  It's subverted by using registered leaders in your own troop.  Maybe, keep existing MBCs, but also let troops / unit committees additionally recognize MBs where a local expert is available, but not registered as a MBC.  In that case, a registered leader could tag along with multiple scouts and serve as the person who confirms the MB requirements were covered.  I don't have the right answer, but the current MB program is not as great as people make out and often a joke to many of the scouts.

This is an interesting idea. The only issue I could see is if the leader and expert have a difference of opinion for completion. Happens with scoutmasters all the time.

I'm not sure there is an easy answer. When learned that parents envision Sandy Hook possibilities in their unit, there is no way they are going to let a stranger work independently with the scouts, even under your idea. 

I see virtual meetings becoming a real path for these things, but I don't believe the scouts will get the same benefits as they would from a personal experience with the MBC

Barry

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