Significant Cultural Changes are Coming Soon

[InquisitiveScouter 1653]

On 12/10/2020 at 4:01 PM, Cburkhardt said:

I hope the treatment of volunteers by professionals will rapidly fade as an issue and that we can begin to envision how volunteers will more-fully run things at the District and Council levels.  The tragic "perfect storm" is providing us an opportunity to make some very significant adjustments.  Many higher-salaried people with hardened viewpoints are already choosing to move on.  We have all been part of a system that has not functioned well for an extended time.  Let's put our operating expectations and behavioral standards firmly in place fairly soon.  I want my fellow volunteers and me to be treated appropriately.  We remind the girls in our Troop that they ascribe to a higher standard of kind behavior when they swear the Scout Law.  Let's hold ourselves as well as to pros to this higher standard and assure that your concerns are not a dominant aspect of our experiences.  

When I first met our new council SE, in conversation I asked him what his biggest headache was.  He said (closely paraphrasing), "Volunteers who think that when they put on the uniform, they are equal to me."

I knew right then we were headed down the road to dysfunction...and I have not been wrong these last five years.

[David CO 1783]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

 "Volunteers who think that when they put on the uniform, they are equal to me."

I'm sure the volunteers who said that were just trying to be polite.  They knew they weren't equal to him.  They're better than him.

[ParkMan 1293]

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

When I first met our new council SE, in conversation I asked him what his biggest headache was.  He said (closely paraphrasing), "Volunteers who think that when they put on the uniform, they are equal to me."

I knew right then we were headed down the road to dysfunction...and I have not been wrong these last five years.

Scouting is a very funny enterprise.  As a professional, the SE is not that senior a position.  I've got numerous volunteers in my unit and district who are more accomplished professionally than our SE.  Yet, the organization is setup to treat the SE like they are a high level politician or dignitary.  The same is true with the council president.  It strikes me that some humility and understanding of servant leadership in these roles is a good thing.

I'm constantly reminded that we are all here as servants of unit level Scouters.  I think a SE and DEs who recognize this are an asset to their profession.

Edited December 14, 2020 by ParkMan
typos

[David CO 1783]

4 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I'm constantly reminded that we are all here as servants of unit level Scouters.  I think a SE and DEs who recognize this this are an asset to their profession.

I suppose they would be, if there actually were any.  

[MattR 2659]

41 minutes ago, David CO said:

I suppose they would be, if there actually were any.  

That's nonsense. 

[ProScouter06 34]

Interesting tone to this thread. Certainly sounds like everyone’s experience has been a mixed bag as it relates to the volunteer/professional relationship. Too bad since we all wear the same uniform and should all be focused on the same thing, a quality program for youth. When we’re all working toward that goal in our respective positions from the scoutmaster to the committee member, from the DE to the den leader and from the camp cook to the cub master. No ones perfect, there are great examples of each of these people and bad examples too. Of course if you’re jaded, you’ve been poisoned with implicit bias that will only seep out to effect others, right?
 

As a former professional, I can remember the bias I felt from many volunteers. It was as if I had done something wrong for choosing to work for the scouts. To me, as a young working professional this left a lasting impression that has stayed with me as I ventured into new careers. It taught me hard lessons about people and what kind of treatment to expect, in work and in life. On the other hand, I also remember the kindness shown to me by the volunteers I worked with. Lifelong friendships were formed. People I still exchange Christmas cards with. By some volunteers I was shown incredible kindness that I’ll never forget. 
 

Bringing this back to the discussion. The fact of the matter is that, in reality, the DE, the staff, the organization is necessary to be sustainable and to grow. The BSA learned this many years ago. Would it be great if we didn’t need the professional organization and could rely on volunteers? Of course. But that’s not the reality whether we like it or not. We struggled ten years ago trying to find more volunteers, quality volunteers. I’d imagine it’s the same if it harder in today’s atmosphere. Two examples come to mind that I experienced that speaks to the need of professionals. 
 

1) I walk into a cub scout rally night to visit, offer help, greet new families etc. the cub master whom I did not know well walked up to me upset about something I cannot remember what, and she quit. The event was about to start and there were no other leaders present besides some den leaders. I was relatively new to the district and the community. It was terrible. But I couldn’t let everyone’s first experience with scouting be an angry cub master who walked out. So I did the best I could. Led the kids in a few fun scout songs. Shared a bit about what scouting was all about and we got into questions/answers and the night was salvaged. The attendees did not notice any problem. Of course now we had a lack of kids with no cub master. Story for another day. The point is who on earth would want to handle that, with a smile if it weren’t their job? 
 

2) This speaks to the argument that commissioners can and do all the things the DE does. I had a commissioner attend a pack meeting. Older gentleman, nice guy but rough around the edges. Well,  he yelled at some cub scouts for not saluting properly during a flag ceremony. Kids quit and I had to deal with the fall out. The commissioner didn’t not lose his role, since we needed more volunteers not less. He wasn’t exactly a great brand ambassador. Without accountability he kept volunteering. 
 

Instead of contempt, or distrust, we should be thankful there are people willing to work in a non profit, underpaid, and overworked for the benefit of an organization we all believe in that will impact the lives of our children.

[TAHAWK 1420]

"Mixed bag"  - sounds right.  Is that not predictable?  The "professionals" I have encountered have ranged from superior as Scouters, leaders and people to awful in all respects, and all gradations in between.  We got on well or bumped along OK.  Most were so crushed with work, that I sympathized with their circumstances whether they could help me meet my objectives or not.   I tried to make them look good to their supervisors, and so no reason not to do so.  I only got one moved to another slot because he lied to me so consistently, often about trivial matters, that I simply could not work with him.  In the end, a departing SE axed him as a favor to the incoming

Volunteers - no surprise - equally covered the entire range.    We were so short of help that my strategy was to find a job for everyone; a job that they could tolerate and perform.   A particular burden was irrational hostility to "professionals," which did not help much.  I had a fantastic Cub Round Table "Chairperson" (oddity of the council that RT leaders reported to Scout or Cub Chairs, not the District Commissioner), but I had to keep her away from "professionals" lest she snarl at them over some real or imagined slight.  (One new DE signed up on Thursday, met her at the Service Center, on Saturday and quit the following Monday before I even met her!) For her "down town" meant council and was a curse. ("That is so downtown!")   Fortunately, that attitude did not come out in the SRO monthly Roundtables.  (We had to move RTs three times to get her a larger space.)  At her job, she rocked, and he sold tickets to events like crazy.  Still, I was told she had to go three years in a row, which did not happen.  (She ran the council Cub Pow Wow training event every year with ever-increasing attendance - and revenue. )   When my successor at District Chair went along and sacked her, attendance at RT collapsed.  I was asked to do a bit promoting  for OWL and Baloo one month, and one pack was represented, rattling around in a 200-capacity hall, a normal situation I was told.  Quite sad.  I avoided looking in on the Cubs in the following months and years.  😐

People issues are present on both sides of the "professional"/volunteer divide.  We had a Council President, who told our district Key Three that he wished all volunteers were employees so he could "fire the lot."  The SE was present, nodding in agreement.  They were there to give us an award for fund-raising and membership growth.  I went to the toilet and missed what set the President off.  The then District Chair, one of the Council of Twelve of the LDS Church and the Operations VP of a moderately-large tech firm later purchased by IBM, was stunned.  "What just happened?"  The DC, a Bird commanding a first-line reserve Armor Cavalry Regiment, just smiled.  There was a lot of pressure on at that time because the council was running well in the red - averaging nine months delinquent on paying bills.   Later, the auditors arrived after the SE's "rabbi" at Region retired suddenly, and we had a new SE and President.

Edited December 15, 2020 by RememberSchiff
Checked spellcheck (red squiggly underlines) - worked for me.

[TAHAWK 1420]

No way to edit my awful typing even ten seconds after posting. 0___0

No spell check.

[David CO 1783]

3 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

We had a Council President, who told our distirct Key Three that he wished all volnteers were employees so he could "fire the lot."  

I'm not surprised.  The council president is always on the side of the execs.  He basically works for the SE.  He does not represent the Chartered Organizations, the units, the volunteer leaders, or the scouts. 

 

[David CO 1783]

3 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

At her job, she rocked, and he sold tickets to events like crazy.  Still, I was told she had to go

Exactly!  This is why councils are so horrible.  All of the competent people are driven out and replaced by compliant sycophants. 

 

[Eagledad 2777]

4 hours ago, David CO said:

I'm not surprised.  The council president is always on the side of the execs.  He basically works for the SE.  He does not represent the Chartered Organizations, the units, the volunteer leaders, or the scouts. 

 

Not really. The top dog is usually the one who speaks with knowledge and authority. When they speak, everyone listens. Sometimes that person is the council president. 

SE's are as good or bad as the people who select them, as well as the council presidents. My experience is SE's lack vision and Council Presidents tend to be narcissistic business leaders. SE's got the position as a reward for hard work (and little politics). Council presidents got there with a little bullying. Not always of course, but the system design encourages that kind of progression.

4 hours ago, David CO said:

Exactly!  This is why councils are so horrible.  All of the competent people are driven out and replaced by compliant sycophants. 

 

Again, the issue is bringing in talented DE's. They just don't pay well to get such people. When I started volunteering at the District and Council levels, I found finally understood why God put such a high priority of "patience" on the qualities of love. Volunteers in general don't have the skills for their responsibilities, so they are driven by emotion. Emotion and vision don't mix. But, when you find one, then there is the issue of personality clashes. The worst pros are the ones who don't understand that giving other people credit for program success makes them look better, not weak. But, the competition for advancement is so strong that any exceptional effort by a volunteer scares them. I once watch a Council Field Director refuse the offer for FREE advertising in the local paper. We figured it was worth at least $15,000. But, he wanted the credit and couldn't see getting it. The system must work because he became an SE in another council a year later.

I don't know the answers. I believe the hierarchy design is right. The problem is there aren't enough checks and balances for egos and ineptness.  That is goes for volunteer positions as well. I watched one District Chairman build a tremendous scouting recruiting program only to have it wrecked in one year by a new chair that wasn't qualified to do anything except work under the CC at the cub level. Talent is out there, but a good recruiter is required. And that is rare.

Barry

[CynicalScouter 1434]

55 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

They just don't pay well to get such people. When I started volunteering at the District and Council levels,

My current committee chair is relatively new to the position (18 months). We haven't had a DE in years and the chair was convinced our council S.E. was overpaid and useless based on what he had been told by the old guard. I then showed exactly what the S.E. was paid from the IRS 990s and what the posted salary was for the D.E. position. He came back "is the D.E. part time?" I said no. That ended his complaints about council being "overpaid".

Edited December 15, 2020 by CynicalScouter

[Eagledad 2777]

51 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

My current committee chair is relatively new to the position (18 months). We haven't had a DE in years and the chair was convinced our council S.E. was overpaid and useless based on what he had been told by the old guard. I then showed exactly what the S.E. was paid from the IRS 990s and what the posted salary was for the D.E. position. He came back "is the D.E. part time?" I said no. That ended his complaints about council being "overpaid".

Our best DE was a retired engineer with 20 years as the SM or a top 5 level troop. He didn't need the money and had a good understanding of how to do the job..

[sri_oa161 14]

Had a "ghost" DE once.  Was hired, but no one in district met him.  He showed up at council office on Monday for meetings and training with other DEs and staff.  The DEs went to lunch.  He didn't come back.  We didn'e even get his name.

Have had some great DEs and some bad ones.  Now none.

[RememberSchiff 3662]

33 minutes ago, sri_oa161 said:

Had a "ghost" DE once.  Was hired, but no one in district met him.  He showed up at council office on Monday for meetings and training with other DEs and staff.  The DEs went to lunch.  He didn't come back.  We didn'e even get his name.

I don't rightly know his real name but I've heard him called the Lone Scouter. 

Edited December 15, 2020 by RememberSchiff