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The Boy Scouts in Crisis - The Perfect Storm


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Thanks. You need to, however, reference oft-forgot starting points for each policy, just like you did when you referenced the improved scouting program. Hunt down the years for:

  • The declaration of religious principle.
  • The policy on homosexual adults (specifically, scoutmasters).
  • The (different) policy on homosexual youth.
  • The first SM who wanted to confer Eagle Scout to a female.

The important thing to note here, is that these were not generated in a vacuum. Somebody in one part of the country didn't like how somebody in another part of the country was proceeding, and the picked BSA for a cudgel.

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Tightly written, well done. Perhaps mention that many summer camps, a major source of local council funding and retention of scouts, were closed due to covid.

"Scouting units ceased to meet in many communities, council and national events were cancelled and much fund-raising ground to a halt in many places throughout the nation."

Scouting units ceased to meet in many communities, council and national events including local summer camps were cancelled and much fund-raising ground to a halt in many places throughout the nation.  

My $0.01

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The impact of COVID on membership really cannot be understated. Even in Packs like mine where we have tried to maintain an active outdoor program, we've taken a hit to membership (both previous and new) because of covid. Some parents even openly complained that we weren't delivering the outdoor group activities they had come to expect. We did the best we could but we had to dial things back a bit, and for some families that made scouting no longer living up to expectations.

With new parents it was hard to sell the promise of adventure when we were hamstrung on how much outdoor adventure we could really do. While our new signups were less than half of what I'd expect in an average year. Really probably about 25% of what I'd ideally hope to see.

How much of that added to the crisis or just acted on its own as a sort of crisis on top of another crisis, I'm not sure. But I think we'll be discussing the covid effect for a long time, while trying to recover from it and hopefully build back new membership next year.

 

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1 hour ago, FireStone said:

The impact of COVID on membership really cannot be understated. Even in Packs like mine where we have tried to maintain an active outdoor program, we've taken a hit to membership (both previous and new) because of covid. Some parents even openly complained that we weren't delivering the outdoor group activities they had come to expect. We did the best we could but we had to dial things back a bit, and for some families that made scouting no longer living up to expectations.

With new parents it was hard to sell the promise of adventure when we were hamstrung on how much outdoor adventure we could really do. While our new signups were less than half of what I'd expect in an average year. Really probably about 25% of what I'd ideally hope to see.

How much of that added to the crisis or just acted on its own as a sort of crisis on top of another crisis, I'm not sure. But I think we'll be discussing the covid effect for a long time, while trying to recover from it and hopefully build back new membership next year.

 

It's just a bad situation all around. Between the bad publicity and the bankruptcy spiking up fees, it's been tough. As has been stated, most other youth programs reduced or refunded fees in the face of offering reduced programming. BSA has increased fees, and that is a tough sell.  It's also been very hard to accommodate varied expectations. Some families are completely spooked by in person activities even when outdoors; others are angry that more activities aren't being offered. Committees and leaders have had to grapple with the fact that they and their COs are potentially liable if someone gets sick and they are not following the most conservative guidelines. 

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As with many class action torts, the lawyers are incentivized to get (or create) as many presumed victims as possible.  Some of the abuse was real but how many of the supposed 90,000 cases are mixing things like teasing by other boys in group showers with pedophile cases?  How many of them are a result of the lawyers getting the now-men to attribute their current problems to "abuse"?  If the count vastly exceeds the so-called secret files (at least some of which were unproveable and maybe even innocent people), just what were BSA or the adukts involved supposed to do with cases they didn't even know about?

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48 minutes ago, HICO_Eagle said:

As with many class action torts, the lawyers are incentivized to get (or create) as many presumed victims as possible.  Some of the abuse was real but how many of the supposed 90,000 cases are mixing things like teasing by other boys in group showers with pedophile cases?  How many of them are a result of the lawyers getting the now-men to attribute their current problems to "abuse"?  If the count vastly exceeds the so-called secret files (at least some of which were unproveable and maybe even innocent people), just what were BSA or the adukts involved supposed to do with cases they didn't even know about?

If teasing in group showers counts, I was both a victim and a perpetrator.  They got me with a few zingers, but I like to think I gave as good as I got.

 

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8 hours ago, David CO said:

If teasing in group showers counts, I was both a victim and a perpetrator.  They got me with a few zingers, but I like to think I gave as good as I got.

I wholeheartedly agree with @David CO, but feel like I can’t respond in detail because these ambulance chasers might build cases that hold someone’s estate liable.

I have acquaintances who were brought up in other organizations and communities that were more permissive than BSA. I’m sure that they don’t want their communities gutted.

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12 hours ago, HICO_Eagle said:

As with many class action torts, the lawyers are incentivized to get (or create) as many presumed victims as possible.  Some of the abuse was real but how many of the supposed 90,000 cases are mixing things like teasing by other boys in group showers with pedophile cases?  How many of them are a result of the lawyers getting the now-men to attribute their current problems to "abuse"?  If the count vastly exceeds the so-called secret files (at least some of which were unproveable and maybe even innocent people), just what were BSA or the adukts involved supposed to do with cases they didn't even know about?

It is a challenge with the age of accusations and the time in which they were handled.

When I was a DE (Back in the 80's) there was a issue in one of the districts.  None of the families wanted to formally involved the police.  The CO (a church) did not want the police formally involved.  As there was not a required reporter laws NOR shield protections laws, if we (the council) had called the police, that could have opened us up to slander issues.  We terminated the alleged abuser's membership in the BSA, put his name in the file, and that was all we could legally and legitimately do AT THAT TIME.

Spring forward 30 - 40 years, now the case is being made we should have done something.  But in reality we did DO something.  Is it comparable to today's expectations, no.  Same as when I was in car wreck in mid 70's and got a head injury as there were no airbags.  Can I sue GM now as they did not provide that safety feature as standard back then?

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36 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

 

When I was a DE (Back in the 80's) there was a issue in one of the districts.  None of the families wanted to formally involved the police.  The CO (a church) did not want the police formally involved.  As there was not a required reporter laws NOR shield protections laws, if we (the council) had called the police, that could have opened us up to slander issues.  We terminated the alleged abuser's membership in the BSA, put his name in the file, and that was all we could legally and legitimately do AT THAT TIME.

Have you been interested enough to determine if the particular youth members filed claims?

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12 hours ago, David CO said:

If teasing in group showers counts, I was both a victim and a perpetrator.  They got me with a few zingers, but I like to think I gave as good as I got.

 

Every single high school with a boys locker room and every single youth sports facility with a locker room is in trouble....

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37 minutes ago, John-in-KC said:

Have you been interested enough to determine if the particular youth members filed claims?

That was a long time ago, do not recall the youth(s) names as I was not directly involved.

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I still question if admitting girls was a response to the LDS leaving.  The LDS had to be working on their alternate program for years and I expect informed the BSA of their decision well ahead of any public announcements.  Giving the timing, it seems like the BSA added girls as they knew they would be losing LDS membership.  Would be interesting to hear the details once they all come out.  

Covid has devastated our Pack.  Our Troop shrank by 24% but our Pack will shrink by 80%+.  I expect we will recover some next fall when we can return to normal … but it will take 2 -  3 years to get back to our original membership, if at all possible.

 

That said, Covid & the lawsuits while massive impacts, may simply be pulling in the end date of the BSA.  If BSA was healthy going in, I'm sure it could survive both.  The real issue is that BSA has been in decline for decades.

In my area, the groups that seem to be expanding have hired staff.  Travel sports have paid coaches.  After school programs have paid staff.  Non BSA overnight week long summer camps cost $800+ but have well compensated staff, cabins and nice equipment.  Their commonality …. no or limited time commitment from parents.

Volunteer organizations that thrived in the 1900s are dying in the 2000s.  I wonder if this is a symptom of 2 income households.  Moms and dads both working and then are expected to both share in household activities after work.  Neither have time/energy to spend with volunteer organizations (like Boy Scouts, youth sports, etc.).  This isn't true 100%, but finding good volunteers is tough these days. I wonder if it was a model that worked well in the past but doesn't work well going forward and also explains the decline of the fraternal orders.

Look at the rise in dual income households since 1960.  While BSA membership has other causes & effects, I expect this was a huge headwind.  

FT_dual-income-households-1960-20121.png?w=310

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, qwazse said:

I wholeheartedly agree with @David CO, but feel like I can’t respond in detail because these ambulance chasers might build cases that hold someone’s estate liable.

I have acquaintances who were brought up in other organizations and communities that were more permissive than BSA. I’m sure that they don’t want their communities gutted.

I don't think it is necessarily a matter of permissiveness.  Many conservatively minded people and groups, in those days, had opinions and attitudes that would not seem acceptable today.  My parents would have expressed disappointment if I was embarrassed by my own nudity.  They felt that boys should grow up "confident".  Insecurity and vulnerability were not considered to be positive male traits in my community.  The girls were expected to be modest.  Not the boys.

 

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5 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Every single high school with a boys locker room and every single youth sports facility with a locker room is in trouble....

I hope not.  Most middle school and high school boys don't take showers at school anymore.  Group showers have become a thing of the past.  I don't agree with this.  I am old fashioned.  I still thing group showers helped to build team comradery and individual self-confidence.  I wish schools still did this, but they don't.  There is no point in arguing the matter.

As for the past, I would hate to see schools and other institutions penalized for having once had group showers.  I don't think requiring boys to shower was a form of abuse.  If actual sexual abuse occurred,  the people and institutions responsible should be held accountable.  

 

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